4K Cameras

[dhicks]

Hello All,

 

Does anyone currently use 4K-capable video cameras? If so, which ones, and are there any particular issues / problems you've come accross? I'm thinking of buying a Panasonic FZ1000, which seems to be about the cheapest consumer camera that does 4K video. I already have an FZ150, which I've been very pleased with, the only issue being that the video recording is limited to half an hour due to import restrictions. Therefore, I was thinking of purchasing a camera from the US. Has anyone done that before - do you just need to pay VAT, or are there further duties to pay? What do people do about editing 4K video - does Adobe Premier Elements manage okay, or does it need something more capable?

[Oaktech]

My Sony smartphone shoots 4k and I'm not having any issues editing it with anything from adobe.

[plexer]

Has anyone done that before - do you just need to pay VAT, or are there further duties to pay? What do people do about editing 4K video - does Adobe Premier Elements manage okay, or does it need something more capable?

 

You would just pay the vat and a fee to the company who delivers it which if it's parcel force is I think £8

 

http://www.parcelforce.com/customs-charging

 

Ben

[localzuk]

Define camera... The FZ1000 is a full fat camera with zoom etc... The Go Pro Hero 4 Black can do 4K and is about £370, but doesn't have all the usual camera features.

 

I believe Premier Elements 12 can handle 4K video - you main issue is processing power I think! It takes a relatively beefy machine to render out 4K video.

 

Personally, I can't recommend signing up to Adobe CC enough. £22 a month and you get the whole Adobe suite, including Premier CC and After Affects.

[dhicks]

Define camera...

 

I'm thinking of being able to video school plays, sporting events and similar and being able to take 4K frames out as 8 megapixel photos. I was thinking of something with a reasonable zoom lense and that can take an external mic. Are there lenses available for the Go Pro?

 

I believe Premier Elements 12 can handle 4K video - you main issue is processing power I think!

 

We have one copy of Premier Elements 13 in the school, currently installed on the head's machine but I'm planning to move it to its own dedicated workstation with an SSD installed. If I can get some 4K test footage I'll see how that does.

 

Personally, I can't recommend signing up to Adobe CC enough. £22 a month and you get the whole Adobe suite, including Premier CC and After Affects.

 

The more I think about it, the more reasonable that price seems, although I'd probably need the Photoshop version as well, so that's £40-ish per month, I think.

 

Just thinking: for taking photos of large crowds, team photos and so on, the ability to take a 4K video and pick various parts of the video so we can skip any bits where individuals have their eyes closed, are pulling funny faces, etc, would be handy. Is there anything that currently does something like that, or is that a utility yet to be written?

[localzuk]

Not sure of the school prices, but "student/teacher" pricing (which covers all school employees), is £22ish for the whole lot. I pay it at the moment and have access to every bit of their software.

[dhicks]

Not sure of the school prices, but "student/teacher" pricing (which covers all school employees), is £22ish for the whole lot. I pay it at the moment and have access to every bit of their software.

 

Thanks, I'll have to look in to that.

 

Lenses - turns out that Backbone make the Ribcage lense adaptor for the GoPro:

 

http://www.back-bone.ca/

RibCage Modified GoPro Hero3+ Black (Includes Camera) [RCCAMERAH3] - $849.00 : Peau Productions - Store

 

You seem to be able to fit a large selection of quality lenses on to a GoPro, all for probably less than one Panasonic FZ1000. I'll have a bit more of a look at one of those, I think - the adaptor for the Go Pro 4 isn't ready quite yet, although it is "coming soon".

[detjo]

GoPro Hero4 Black has 4K

[dhicks]

GoPro Hero4 Black has 4K

 

Indeed. What do people do for powering the GoPro for extended use, so for having it set up as a camcorder-style video camera? If I add an LCD BacPac to the back as a viewfinder, can I add an extra battery pack as well, or can I plug in a USB cable for power? Also, does anyone have any experience of how much 4K footage you can fit on an SD card? I assume 32GB is probably a sensible minimum size - is any "class 10" card good enough, or do I need to explicitly check the I/O specs for SD cards?

[antlear]

Hi have a look at the Black magic stuff, they all need lens but really good kit

Buy - Blackmagic Studio Handheld 4K Camera with 10" viewfinder, MFT Lens Mount and 4 Hour Battery (BMD-CINSTUDMFT/UHD)

Buy - Blackmagic Design Production Camera 4K Super 35mm Cinema EF Mount - Body Only

personally I would stick to hd as it is more standard. Although you can edit 4k you will need a good machine to do all the rendering.

[dhicks]

Hi have a look at the Black magic stuff, they all need lens but really good kit

 

They do look good, and are probably really good value for money for what they are, but that's a bit more than I'd be aiming to spend for a body-only camera.

[detjo]

Indeed. What do people do for powering the GoPro for extended use, so for having it set up as a camcorder-style video camera? If I add an LCD BacPac to the back as a viewfinder, can I add an extra battery pack as well, or can I plug in a USB cable for power? Also, does anyone have any experience of how much 4K footage you can fit on an SD card? I assume 32GB is probably a sensible minimum size - is any "class 10" card good enough, or do I need to explicitly check the I/O specs for SD cards?

You can add an LCD Bacpac and power off the GoPro USB wall power supply. Note that you can record whilst connected to the USB wall power but not if powering from USB on a computer.

It's recommended to use Class 10 U3 SD cards for 4K as the std Class 10 can't be guaranteed. A 10 minute 4K30 video on the GoPro is in the region of 4.7Gb file size.

 

4K will work a lot of things much harder too. The camera battery (if used) will drain a lot quicker and the camera gets noticeably warmer than when it's recording 1080p. Editing needs a powerful computer and software is somewhat limited at the lower end of the price range. iMove cant cope with it, for instance, but Final Cut 10 and Grassvalley EDIUS 7 (both 64bit) will manage 4K. EDIUS will take advantage of heaps of RAM too, which may be expensive to add to a MAC. You also might need to consider what media you will put the final work onto.

 

Blackmagic came to my mind. It's excellent kit but expensive for what we need. You can pick up IDX batteries for extra power - and radio 'broadcasting' too, if it really floats ur boat

[dhicks]

You can add an LCD Bacpac and power off the GoPro USB wall power supply. Note that you can record whilst connected to the USB wall power but not if powering from USB on a computer.

 

Do I have to use a wall socket for power via USB, or will an external USB battery be okay? I'm thinking of a portable setup with one of those larger rechargable USB power supplies powering the camera.

 

It's recommended to use Class 10 U3 SD cards for 4K as the std Class 10 can't be guaranteed. A 10 minute 4K30 video on the GoPro is in the region of 4.7Gb file size.

 

So a 32GB SD card is going to store about an hour's worth of video - just what I needed to know, thanks.

 

4K will work a lot of things much harder too. The camera battery (if used) will drain a lot quicker and the camera gets noticeably warmer than when it's recording 1080p. Editing needs a powerful computer and software is somewhat limited at the lower end of the price range. iMove cant cope with it, for instance, but Final Cut 10 and Grassvalley EDIUS 7 (both 64bit) will manage 4K. EDIUS will take advantage of heaps of RAM too, which may be expensive to add to a MAC. You also might need to consider what media you will put the final work onto.

 

Would a new Mac Book Pro be capable enough for 4K editing, do you think? I think the basic version comes with a 5,200RPM drive - I'd guess an upgrade to SSD would be needed, but otherwise would the machine itself be powerful enough? I did see the new iMac in the Mac Store this weekend, the one with the huge great 5k screen. As a couple of reviews have pointed out, you'd pay £1,500 just for that screen anyway, making £2,000 for the iMac actually quite good value for money...

 

Blackmagic came to my mind. It's excellent kit but expensive for what we need. You can pick up IDX batteries for extra power - and radio 'broadcasting' too, if it really floats ur boat

[detjo]

Do I have to use a wall socket for power via USB, or will an external USB battery be okay? I'm thinking of a portable setup with one of those larger rechargable USB power supplies powering the camera.

I haven't tried but is should be OK as long as it's not getting the power from a computer.

 

Would a new Mac Book Pro be capable enough for 4K editing, do you think? I think the basic version comes with a 5,200RPM drive - I'd guess an upgrade to SSD would be needed, but otherwise would the machine itself be powerful enough? I did see the new iMac in the Mac Store this weekend, the one with the huge great 5k screen. As a couple of reviews have pointed out, you'd pay £1,500 just for that screen anyway, making £2,000 for the iMac actually quite good value for money...

My only hesitation with the Macbook is the screen size, tho you could add an external monitor, I guess.

Personally, I wouldn't go lower than a 2.5Ghz i7 / 16Gb RAM / NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M / SSD.

[dhicks]

The Go Pro Hero 4 Black can do 4K and is about £370, but doesn't have all the usual camera features.

 

I'm considering a Ribcage modified GoPro:

 

http://www.back-bone.ca/product/ribcage-modified-camera/

 

(I'll wait until the modified GoPro Hero 4 Black is out). These take c-mount lenses - seemingly there's a wide selection of c-mount lenses available, including very cheap Chinese ones off eBay and proper antique ones as used in old hand-cranked film cameras. Can anyone recommend a good lense to use for filming? Would a normal (i.e. same focal length as the human eye), prime (i.e. fixed focal length) lense be best to start with? Or should I maybe go for a wide-angle lense - not as drastic as the GoPro's default fisheye lense, but something I could leave at the back of a hall to capture the whole width of a stage in 4K, then zoom in with software later to 720p quality?

[LosOjos]

One thing to bear in mind - the CMOS sensor in that tiny GoPro is not going to be as big as that on a full size camera*. So, although both claim to shoot 4K, you're not going to get the same quality out of a GoPro as you would that FZ1000.

 

* I'm assuming as I'm finding it very difficult to find any actual specs on that front

[Arthur]

I'm assuming as I'm finding it very difficult to find any actual specs on that front

GoPro cameras have tiny 1/2.3" sensors.

 

 

[dhicks]

So, although both claim to shoot 4K, you're not going to get the same quality out of a GoPro as you would that FZ1000.

 

I don't quite get how the sensor size affects image quality - isn't 3840 x 2160 pixels the same no matter how you go about filming it? I can understand that different lenses are going to affect the amount of light that gets to that sensor, so a better-quality wide-angle lense picks up a wider angle of view without as much barrel distortion as a cheaper lense might.

 

Does anyone have any idea what focal lense is "normal" on the GoPro? Is it somewhere around 50 - 60mm, or the equivilant of what that would be if the GoPro had a 35mm sensor?

[ChickenDhansak]

This article may help regarding the sensor size question. (Noise, Megapixel & How big are your camera's pixels? sections)

LaesieWorks - Mega Pixels & Image Sensor Size, and their effect on image quality

Edited November 28, 2014 by ChickenDhansak

[dhicks]

This article may help regarding the sensor size question.

 

It did - many thanks. Actually, after reading that article, for the kind of thing I'm going to be doing with it (filming children's plays and so forth), the GoPro still sounds like the right camera. I'll be rendering at 720p anyway, which should sort out any issues with sensor noise. From the reviews I've read, the new Go Pro do better than they used to in low-light environments, and I'm mostly aiming to film well-lit situations anyway. Amazon are still waiting for stock to arrive, so it looks like it's very popular. I'm also now tempted to get a Stedicam to go with it...

[LosOjos]

Another thing to bear in mind RE sensor size is the effect it has on depth of field (and the "bokeh" effect).

 

Basically, a smaller sensor will not be able to give you that nice, soft, out of focus background that has come to be associated with quality.

 

for example, the first image was taken with a APS-C sensor (found in the majority of dSLRs) and the second with a full frame sensor (same size as 35mm film, roughly). These are both going to give a lot more of that BG blur than the GoPro, but it's the only side by side example I could find using same lens and aperture

 

http://i.stack.imgur.com/6wQFU.jpg

 

This may not be important to you, but just thought it was worth pointing out

[dhicks]

Basically, a smaller sensor will not be able to give you that nice, soft, out of focus background that has come to be associated with quality.

 

Indeed - after the reading that link ChickenDhansak posted, I spent a chunk of yesterday reading various Wikipedia articles about camera equipment. I can't quite understand why bokeh is seen as desireable. Is a more recent fashion - is it just because it implies expensive, "pro" equipment, and it's user (i.e. viewer) perception rather than the actual physics of the human visual system that say bokeh -> quality? Or is there an actual, physical reason - does the human eye focus on whoever you're looking at, so whoever is speaking should be in focus, with whoever isn't ever so slighty out of focus? Does everything being shaprly in focus mess up our visual system's way of judging distances in a 2D image?

 

Backbone's site sell (for £250) a 2/3" 12mm lense with a "pleasingly cinematic bokeh", which implies that with their lense the GoPro can actually capture quite nice cinematic-style footage. However, I'm inclined to get the currently-on-offer 7.5mm M12 lense and add any desired bokeh effects with software afterwards.

[detjo]

can't quite understand why bokeh is seen as desireable[/Quote]

The short answer is; you get a 'smooth and creamy' bokeh from more expensive lenses/bigger sensors instead of the 'messy, cluttered' bokeh with cheaper lenses/smaller sensors, which can distract the user from the focal point. However, most people probably don't even notice it.

 

..and add any desired bokeh effects with software afterwards.[/Quote]

Be careful with that, it would take a lot of work to get that right

Edited November 30, 2014 by detjo

[dhicks]

Be careful with that, it would take a lot of work to get that right

 

I seem to remember software-faked bokeh being a feature in Android's camera app. Looking at the explanation of how it works, Google seem to actually do proper 3D object recognition to decide which sections of a photo to bokeh-ize. If that process is available in an API somewhere, I can possibly get Google app engine / compute engine / Drive to do the work.

 

Interestingly, high depth-of-field films seem to be a stylistic choice for directors - Citezen Kane was filmed with a high depth-of-field, seemingly. For the kind of thing I'm going to be filming (school plays, etc), having everything in focus seems appropriate - almost back to Georges Méliès' style of filming, with one static camera pointed at a proscenium arch stage.

[LosOjos]

I can't quite understand why bokeh is seen as desireable. Is a more recent fashion - is it just because it implies expensive, "pro" equipment, and it's user (i.e. viewer) perception rather than the actual physics of the human visual system that say bokeh -> quality? Or is there an actual, physical reason - does the human eye focus on whoever you're looking at, so whoever is speaking should be in focus, with whoever isn't ever so slighty out of focus? Does everything being shaprly in focus mess up our visual system's way of judging distances in a 2D image?

 

I can't speak for the physics/psychology behind it at any kind of scientific level, but from personal experience (I've been a hobby photographer for a few years, here's a shameless plug to my flickr stream) I'd say you're along the right lines with your post. "Bokeh" refers specifically to the spherical artifacts caused by the aperture of the lens. This, I would say, is very much fashionable/trendy right now and this is evidenced by every single person starting out with a dSLR abusing it (I dare say I have done too!). It's partly because it's an almost sure fire sign you have decent equipment; in fact some lenses are sought after for their increased number of aperture blades and the smoother bokeh that creates; and partly because it's kind of a cool trick anyone can do easily with a wide aperture.

 

Shallow DoF is more important, in my opinion, than bokeh. In a scene where the photographer wishes focus to be drawn to a specific subject, DoF is a great way to achieve this. It's especially important when shooting people I think, as it's not just about drawing the eye to the right place, it's about removing unwanted background clutter which can detract from the subject. It does emulate the way we see - try looking at a nearby mug (ceramic or organic, whatever your preference) and notice how everything in your peripheral vision is out of focus. This is what DoF emulates, and this is why I believe this is a desirable effect for some scenes. Of course when it comes to landscapes, you'll almost always want "infinite" DoF i.e. everything in focus.

 

I seem to remember software-faked bokeh being a feature in Android's camera app. Looking at the explanation of how it works, Google seem to actually do proper 3D object recognition to decide which sections of a photo to bokeh-ize. If that process is available in an API somewhere, I can possibly get Google app engine / compute engine / Drive to do the work.

 

I have seen such software for stills and it can be quite effective, not sure how it'd work for video though and it would require a behemoth of a machine to process 4K video to add the effect.

 

Interestingly, high depth-of-field films seem to be a stylistic choice for directors - Citezen Kane was filmed with a high depth-of-field, seemingly. For the kind of thing I'm going to be filming (school plays, etc), having everything in focus seems appropriate - almost back to Georges Méliès' style of filming, with one static camera pointed at a proscenium arch stage.

 

Ultimately, this is what it all comes down to; stylistic choice. There are those that will swear a certain way of doing things is the only way of doing things (photographically). Whilst I understand the need to understand this "proper" way of shooting a scene, I totally disagree that it's the only way to do it. Art is subjective, after all!

 

Now that may all be totally disregarded in your choice of camera, but I wanted to share my opinion as it's something I find quite interesting