Meru quotes help pls

[moschops]

Please could you give me advice on the quotes I have received for my schools Meru network.

 

I asked for two quotes on a meru network for my school (230 children over a relatively large area for a primary school) Only one company came out to look at school. Due to visit the two quotes are quite different (They may not be but to me they look different) I then got another quote in the hope that they would enable me to compare it with previous quotes - they didn't visit and in a not very subtle way said we'll give you a meru quote but it is rubbish compared to Ruckus. So feel very confused - my research shows similar confusion or downright fanaticism for either approach (Ruckus or Meru) I am at a bit of a loss... may just go with company that visited. Any comments would be very welcome. (Has been almost a year since first quote and children are missing out. please help) Quotes below.

 

 

Company 1 Total £11,267.33 exc vat

 

Meru 13AP Bundle - 13x Meru AP1020e, MC1550 Controller, 20x AP Licenses, 3Yr Support 1 £5,680.75

10+AP Install Price 16 X £88.55 =£1,416.80

HP ProCurve 3500-24G-PoE+ yl Switch 1 £1,100.00

Meru AP1020e 802.11n Wireless Access Point X 3 £961.95

HP ProCurve E2530-24G-PoE+ Switch 1 £821.71

16x25 Mini Trunking 90 £5.75 £517.50

Configuration of Wireless Network and Existing Laptops 1 £398.00

HP 1410-24G Switch X 2 £231

Patch Panel X2 £33.06 £66.12

HP X121 1G SFP Transciever 2 £18.64 £37.28

Fibre Patch Cords 2 £9.72 £19.44

1m Patch Lead 16 £1.03 £16.48

 

 

Company 2 Gave two options and had some other additions after discussion with me.

 

Wireless Network: Option 1 - 300Mb £7,781.04

1 Meru primary school bundle, inc MC1550 controller with license to connect 10 AP' & 3 AP1020e radios.

£ 1,822.50

2 Meru primary school bundle, 5 x AP1020e radios with approprate licenses for MC1550 controller.

3,503.56 £

2 Out door antenna for playing field and side play ground £218.50

5

Network points in rooms 15,12,14, ICT room & staffroom ( false ceilings)

£475.00

7 Network points in otherside of the school with fix ceiling cables to run in void above ceiling.

£840.00

3 8 Port POE switches with patch leads £341 1

Installation & configuration £750.00

 

 

Wireless Network: Option 2 - 1 Gb £11,137.91

Meru 1550 controller supports up to 50 AP's with 12 AP software upgrade licenses

1,527.86 £

12 Meru dual radio 3x3 3-stream 802.11a/b/g/n/ac £6,382.56

1 Controller & AP software and hardware support £881.76

2 Out door antenna for playing field and side play ground £109.25

7 Network points in otherside of the school with fix ceiling cables to run in void above ceiling. £840.00

5 Network points in rooms 15,12,14, ICT room & staffroom ( false ceilings) £475.00

3 8 Port POE switches with patch leads £341

1 Installation & configuration £750.00

 

 

Company 3 £ 5,578.80 inc VAT

 

*8 x WAP Meru School Wide Managed Wireless Network* (includes all cabling, POE switching, Installation & 3 Years Support)

1 MERU SPECIAL OFFER EDUCATION BUNDLE PRICE £ 4,649.00 £ 4,649.00 1 Meru Managed Wireless Bundle - 3 x AP1020i WAP’s & 1 MC1550 Controller 0.00 Includes: 10 WAP License & 3Yr Controller & License Support Platform can be upgraded to support up to 50 APs. Maximum throughput of 800 Mbps, and includes System Director software with Air Traffic Control, element management system, wireless security, rogue AP detection. Supports N+1 Wireless Controller Redundancy.

5 Meru 1020i Dual Radio A/B/G/N Wireless Access Point 0.00 With integrated antennas providing 180 degrees coverage. AP can be mounted horizontally and vertically. Other optional mounting brackets and screws also available.

8 Remote Krone CAT5e Network Point 0.00 8 Krone CAT5e 0.5M Patch Cable 0.00 1 Netgear GS510TP 8 x Gigabit T - 130W POE - 2 x Gigabit SFP Switch

 

I know it is a lot to ask and I would pay for advice if I knew where to get it from. Thanks in advance

[njc235]

Did the company that visited perform a proper wireless survey with their recommended AP discovering coverage, interferers, AP preferred locations etc? Any wireless quote worth considering will be preceded by a survey.

[LukeC]

One thing I have noticed is the APs quoted are different slightly company 1,2 (option1) have external antennas, company 3 internal antennas. When I was looking I was advised the external gave better coverage. Another point is only company 1, 3 states that it provides 3 year support and software upgrades. I would say you need this. We have recently had Meru installed and so far its been good, yes we have had a few issues with Air play between VLANS but this has been resolved, meru support have been very good, but do need a bit of a push sometimes. We done have many users on it yet we have around 30 at the moment but this is increasing day by day.

[Hefferzzzz]

Don't go with anyone that hasn't visited, this saves a whole lot of pain later on. If its been a year - get a requote. The prices will have changed.

[ticker]

@LukeC, how did they resolve the issues with Airplay between VLANs. I having the same issue at the moment.

 

One thing I have noticed is the APs quoted are different slightly company 1,2 (option1) have external antennas, company 3 internal antennas. When I was looking I was advised the external gave better coverage. Another point is only company 1, 3 states that it provides 3 year support and software upgrades. I would say you need this. We have recently had Meru installed and so far its been good, yes we have had a few issues with Air play between VLANS but this has been resolved, meru support have been very good, but do need a bit of a push sometimes. We done have many users on it yet we have around 30 at the moment but this is increasing day by day.

[Gaz]

Who will be managing the WiFi? Are you the school IT Tech? If you will be the one managing the WiFi then maybe get a trial kit from Meru to see if you even like their system, if not trial Ruckus or other vendors then get a quote for a system you like.

[moschops]

Hi and thanks for input.

 

We have a county technician who comes in every other week. He has some experience of Meru.

 

The quote (2) with external antenna was as a result with discussions with me and other staff we decided we wanted coverage in some outside areas where children work a lot. The other two companies just took maps and put Aps in rooms (Company 1 put an AP in each room without asking if they were used - 3 are not used at the moment and company two asked for a highlighted map and then ended up putting APs in a cloakroom)

 

Company 2 also checked we had sufficient points in the correct places in classrooms as some classes only have two internet points which will be used for desktops.

 

They all provide 3 year support although software upgrades are not mentioned specifically

 

Last question why does quote2 option 1 have a 300mb throughput and quote 3 which is similarly priced (without external antenna and extra internet points) have a throughput of 800 m?

 

Sorry I lied anther question does a primary school need a 1gb throughput?

 

thanks again

[njc235]

Where are you geographically? A local (ish) reseller might provide a full RF wireless survey Free of Charge if you're not too far away from them as part of a no obligation consultancy. You could explore this option with the three who have quoted.

[moschops]

Hi njc235

 

is a RF wireless survey needed if my school is out of range of any other wireless networks? We are surrounded by fields. Quote 2 came in to specify exactly where in each room an AP should go. All three have sent simulations for AP channel interference.

 

Thanks again

[njc235]

A wireless survey is more than just finding out what's coming from outside. Do you have any PIRs, or Microwave ovens for example? You cannot accurately specify the location of an AP without a survey. You can 'best guess' based on predictive heat maps etc but there is no replacement for a guy with an AP on a tripod marching around the school with a laptop gathering real data and picking out interferers. I see from the quotes that some have spec'd the AP1020 and one has spec'd the AP832. This suggests that nobody has really discussed with you what you want, what you're trying to achieve, how much coverage you need, how many concurrent connections you see now and in the future, how many kids in your classrooms etc.

[Roberto]

A couple of things spring to mind here:

 

Firstly, no ifs or buts in my opinion, bin the quotes from people who haven't come out and get new ones from people who are willing to come out. You need a proper survey of the site.

 

Secondly, if you're ringing up a supplier and telling them "We want a meru" then you're immediately limiting yourself - like ringing up a VLE consultant and telling them "We want a moodle"... why limit yourself to one type of solution if you haven't done the work to exclude the other types (and forgive me if I'm wrong) and it sounds like you haven't done so for your wireless needs.

 

I would make a point of trying to get a few quotes across a range of wireless implementations that you think all might be roughly in the area you want. In my experience all the providers have different strengths and some of them may meet your needs better than others and those needs may not be apparent until you've considered how each particular solution could best be deployed at your campus.

 

We undertook an exercise to greatly upgrade our wireless network over the summer break just gone, and asked a few large providers of wireless solutions to quote and after a lot of backwards and forwards we chose a provider (Vanix) who looked at our requirements and saw potential areas of concern that was missed by some of the others who quoted (and which I was aware of to some degree but was keeping quiet on to separate the serious companies from the chancers) because they took the time to come out, speak to us and survey the place.

 

Now I'm not suggesting that Vanix would be the right provider for you, nor am I suggesting you should buy the solution we purchased (60 Aruba APs with controller and a clearpass server deployment, to add to the 90 APs and controller already on site) but I am suggesting you want someone whose approach to your requirements is a serious and professional as Vanix's approach was to us. And someone who just throws a quote over the fence at you without coming out to survey the site and talk to key stakeholders isn't even close.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Roberto

[moschops]

Thanks again

 

Company 2 came in and discussed amount of connections and where, type of access, how we might use it in the future. I am thinking that I might choose company 2 as they visited and then get them to do a survey before they start. TBH they could survey and make a poor job of it and I wouldn't know before it was installed.

 

Which Ap is best and a stupid question - which quoted ap 832 as I couldn't see it?

 

Thanks very much for your time

[moschops]

Thanks Roberto

Not the answer I wanted to hear but appreciated none theless.

I went for Meru on some advice from county (they said lesslikely to go wrong and controller is very reliable) Idiot proofing (Against memostly) is essential.

The possible components, how they are set up and how theywill perform in my school within just the Meru approach is mind boggling and noone I have asked can tell me how the quotes above stack up against each otherlet alone some advice on which to choose.

Once I started to investigate Ruckus? beam flexing andchannel fly or whatever they are called I had to decide to stop. I have spentmore time on this than devising a new curriculum for the children in my schoollet alone the time I have missed planning and marking for my own class.

In the end there seems to be too many variables in the realworld application of the different types of wireless technology I had to stopsomewhere. I have been researching this for a year and have to make a decisionin the next month. This site was my last place of hope before I started to flipa coin.

I am the deputy at a primary school and teach year 6. I likecomputers and technology, I enjoy programming and building my home computersrather than buying them already assembled just because its fun. I have no qualitativeknowledge of wireless networks and definitely none that has allowed the vastamount of research I have done bring me any closer to a decision on whichwireless network is best for my school.

Sorry that sounded like a rant - it was not. Your commentshave just echoed my own thoughts on my complete lack of skills and knowledge tomake this decision.

 

I agree that not visiting is definite no but I would till appreciate some comments on the quotes they have given.

 

Thanks again for your time it is much appreciated

 

[Roberto]

I went for Meru on some advice from county (they said lesslikely to go wrong and controller is very reliable)

 

If your county support team have experience with Meru and can vouch for it in similar schools to yours and provide support maybe then this is certainly a good vote in favour of Meru. This is something I hadn't considered in my earlier comments because I work for a college that is incorporated in its own right and doesn't have much to do with the county's advisers.

 

The possible components, how they are set up and how they will perform in my school within just the Meru approach is mind boggling and no-one I have asked can tell me how the quotes above stack up against each other, let alone some advice on which to choose.

 

Once I started to investigate Ruckus? beam flexing and channel fly or whatever they are called I had to decide to stop. I have spent more time on this than devising a new curriculum for the children in my school, let alone the time I have missed planning and marking for my own class.

 

In the end there seems to be too many variables in the real world application of the different types of wireless technology I had to stop somewhere. I have been researching this for a year and have to make a decision in the next month. This site was my last place of hope before I started to flip a coin.

 

Ok. To a certain degree, it is easy to get buried in technical minutiae and lose sight of the bigger picture. Before worrying about beam forming and numbers of MIMO aerials you need to be asking some more fundamental questions. It may be that you've already done this of course, but it doesn't hurt to check.

 

The questions you need to be asking yourselves should include these ones:

 

• How many connections do you anticipate on this wireless network?
  
• How "dense" will the connections need to be (e.g. 30 devices in one classroom is a very different prospect to 30 devices spread out over a large campus).
  
• What will the connections be used for? (Again, 15 people streaming video in one room on one AP is a different prospect from 15 people using a lightweight, web-based attendance recording system across the campus).
  
• Do you need to support 'BYOD' for the staff's own mobile devices?
  
• If the answer above is yes, then how many? What level of support can be provided for connection issues? (It's probably better to not offer a facility than offer one that can't be supported and which people grow to hate because of lack of support).
  
• What changes to the rest of your network infrastructure are needed to support the numbers of mobile connections arrived at above?
  
• How do any changes noted in the above point fit into your strategy for maintaining and improving the general network infrastructure?
  
• 
  

 

 

I am the deputy at a primary school and teach year 6. I like computers and technology, I enjoy programming and building my home computers rather than buying them already assembled just because its fun. I have no qualitative knowledge of wireless networks and definitely none that has allowed the vast amount of research I have done bring me any closer to a decision on which wireless network is best for my school.

 

Sorry that sounded like a rant - it was not. Your comment shave just echoed my own thoughts on my complete lack of skills and knowledge to make this decision

 

We all can only do so much. Despite being a full time infrastructure manager, it probably took me some help from others plus the best part of a year to finally pinpoint the precise technology we needed for our expansion. It's a specialist area... and very few of us that specialise in that area would be competent to be a deputy head.

 

I agree that not visiting is definite no but I would till appreciate some comments on the quotes they have given.

 

OK looking at the quotes you have been given. I'm not a specialist in Meru product lines but I'll give you my impressions:

 

Company 1

Firstly, they're proposing substantial additions to your wired network infrastructure. I don't know if or why these are needed but that's eating a decent chunk of the cost. I don't think the Procurve 1410 is a PoE switch so I would wonder what problem two of them are going to be solving for a wireless network.

 

HP Procurve E2530 and 2x Procurve 1410 switches plus other sundry wired network infrastructure represents £3400 or so of the cost by my rough guess. £500 alone is going on trunking -- why?

 

As for the Wireless infrastructure itself, you're getting the Meru MC1550 controller here (as you are in the other bids). It can support up to 50 APs which sounds like good expansion potential for what I'd imagine a single-site primary school's requirements are, and looks perfectly capable of doing the job to me.

 

They're proposing to use the Meru 1020 AP here which looks to me to be a reasonable choice. It's a middle of the road choice from the "professional" level of the product chart - unless you require very high density of devices connected to each access point or will be using high end devices that would take advantage of a 3x3 MIMO aerial arrangement then the 1020 (2x2 MIMO) is likely to be adequate.

---

Company 2, Option 1

Again, lots of wired infrastructure here, though at a lower cost than the above solution. It worries me that they've not identified the type of wired network switch they're proposing to use, which makes me think they will all be from crazy vaclav's place of knock-off networks. Or netgear, which is even worse.

 

Clearly this is a budget solution though and it would be wrong of me to condemn a budget solution for being done on a budget. I am a little confused by the much lower number of access points (I see only 8 listed?) and the addition of outdoor aerials; something I wouldn't expect to see on a budget proposal if 16 access points were being used to cover the internal spaces in the first company's proposal.

 

Even if outside coverage is desirable, I would suggest this is something that is better to be added later unless you have a specific need for it (in which case company #1 dropped the ball there) and the money saved should either be, well saved, or used to improve internal coverage.

 

Same controller and Access points as the first proposal so I won't repeat myself on those.

 

Company 2, Option 2

Same comments about the wired infrastructure as on their first proposal.

 

This is clearly a higher-end solution and its interesting that they're proposing access points with 802.11ac support here. They don't specify which AP they're using here, but looking at the spec and comparing it to the Meru AP spec sheet, I'd imagine it's the AP832. They're going with 12 of them, including some outdoor aerials for coverage outside too.

 

I'm really not sure about this. While I think that any new wireless install proposal should discuss 80211.ac, I wouldn't make it a priority just now unless you have a specific requirement that would benefit from it.

 

It appears that the MC1550 controller will support 802.11ac APs, so you can add these later if you find areas where you would benefit from it. Keep in mind that to see the full advantage from 80211.ac you may well need higher spec wired infrastructure and they're apparently keeping this the same between their two proposals which suggests they're either over or under-selling on at least one proposal.

---

Company 3

This proposal is quite difficult to analyse in detail. They've created a set of "bundles" of installation work by the look of it, which makes it easy to know how much it's going to cost to wire up one more room so that it's ready for an AP, but difficult to pick apart the bones of that work.

 

It looks like they're installing 8 APs for you, which again is hard to reconcile with the number of APs in the other bids. They're proposing the same controller and APs as has been mentioned already so I've got nothing new to say there.

 

Looks like they're proposing netgear switches for the wired infrastructure here and as I've already alluded to, I'm not a fan. However, as I've also said before, it would be wrong to condemn a budget solution for being a budget solution, and at least these folks are prepared to detail what kit they're using, which is an improvement over company 2 in this regard.

 

---

 

I hope this has been some help. I suspect I've probably asked or caused you to ask yourself as many questions as I've answered but hopefully some others will chip in with things I've missed and we can help you get things moving in the right direction at least.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Roberto

[moschops]

Thanks Roberto

Your comments were exactly what I needed to know. I have decided which quote I will choose. I have a few questions to ask them (from your last post) and will then get them to quote again as it has been nearly a year. I'm hoping it will not be too different.

Thanks again Roberto and everyone else who posted.

[biggjb]

Hi Moschops, I have just come across this thread. did you get this sorted. It seems there is a lot of confusion about what people are offering you. Also if possible always have the external Antenna version of any AP. The Meru 832 is the next generation AP that will do Wireless AC at the top level. You cannot future proof IT but his is as good as it gets at the moment. Also where exactly are you ?

[njc235]

Also if possible always have the external Antenna version of any AP.

 

I am inclined to disagree with this statement. The internal antenna version is best when the AP is ceiling mounted such that the radiation pattern is in a out and downward direction away from the base-plate whereas the external antenna version would be deployed wall mounted.

 

Once again, a full RF site survey would reveal the best choice.

[biggjb]

There is nothing wrong with the Internal antenna version however after years of deploying Meru experience tells me the external Antenna is a better option. Also there is very little price difference between the 2. I do agree that you should always have a full survey as thing like wall structure are important

[mhowell]

Moschops

You're welcome to contact Meru directly.... [email protected] and if I can help I'd be happy to

Many thanks

Mark