Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down?

[AMLinington]

This story is terrifying. My Parents and my Sister and her husband are due to Fly into Kuala Lumpur (On separate occasions) via MA and my Sisters mother in law has demanded that they change carriers - she's even said she'll pay for it. The sad thing is that it could easily have been a Virgin Airways flight. It's so unnecessary. The whole thing just makes me scared and mad. Scared because as passengers you have no control over the flightpath of the plane (not that there was any reason to believe commercial airliners would be at risk) and that sort of vulnerability terrifies me, and mad because WHY?

 

When this story first broke I said to LeBoyfriend that I would not be surprised if it was a contributory factor in WW3. We have conflict and unrest in the Middle east, North Korea is simmering, the Israel/Palestine conflict has surged again, the problems with Russia and the Ukraine seem only to be getting worse and I can't see the US letting Russia get away with the MH17 atrocity for much longer, missiles are landing near Turkish airports which is probably going to provoke the Turkish authorities into action. There is still ongoing instability in Iraq and Afghanistan which is drawing Pakistan into the fray by association. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't just slide quietly into another World War...

 

I certainly hope the families of the MH17 victims get some answers and some justice for what happened.

[CAM]

There was a major plane crash in Taiwan. Now Algeria are reporting a plane has gone missing en route from Burkina Faso. Really not a good time to fly!

BBC News - Algeria 'loses contact with plane'

[tommej]

This story is terrifying. My Parents and my Sister and her husband are due to Fly into Kuala Lumpur (On separate occasions) via MA and my Sisters mother in law has demanded that they change carriers - she's even said she'll pay for it. The sad thing is that it could easily have been a Virgin Airways flight. It's so unnecessary. The whole thing just makes me scared and mad. Scared because as passengers you have no control over the flightpath of the plane (not that there was any reason to believe commercial airliners would be at risk) and that sort of vulnerability terrifies me, and mad because WHY?

 

When this story first broke I said to LeBoyfriend that I would not be surprised if it was a contributory factor in WW3. We have conflict and unrest in the Middle east, North Korea is simmering, the Israel/Palestine conflict has surged again, the problems with Russia and the Ukraine seem only to be getting worse and I can't see the US letting Russia get away with the MH17 atrocity for much longer, missiles are landing near Turkish airports which is probably going to provoke the Turkish authorities into action. There is still ongoing instability in Iraq and Afghanistan which is drawing Pakistan into the fray by association. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't just slide quietly into another World War...

 

I certainly hope the families of the MH17 victims get some answers and some justice for what happened.

 

Not really sure how changing airlines would help. Both crashes were arguably out of MA control.

 

Worrying about WW3 seems a little over the top, these areas have been fighting back and forth for decades, I'm more worried about when the oil starts to run dry .

Edited July 24, 2014 by tommej

[AMLinington]

Not really sure how changing airlines would help. Both crashes were arguably be out of MA control.

 

Well exactly. I said exactly this but my sisters MIL is very superstitious. Arguably, like American Airlines post 9/11, these high profile tragedies would surely mean that MA would be MORE focussed on ensuring passenger confidence so it is almost MORE safe to fly MA than other airlines because they'll be so focussed on NOT losing passengers (either commercially or literally). MIL is a bit of a worrier and she believes that MA are cursed/jinxed and she wants Sister and BIL to change carriers for her own peace of mind.

 

The MH17 tragedy is definitely NOT the fault of MA, and MH370 isn't directly a fault of the airline, but something happened on that flight that may or may not have been within the power of the MA crew to affect. Until they recover the black box (which is looking unlikely at this point) we'll never know for sure.

[abillybob]

Watched the Dispatches documentary on this which was really interesting link below, it was very interesting although it really puts a face to the people that got killed in the tragic event

 

Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4

 

I think it's disgusting how the Ukrainian Government are just allowing the bodies to sit in the place they fell, no forensic evidence is yet able to take place as the Russian Militants are stopping anyone from going to the scene, people on the ground of Ukraine where reporting bodies just dropping from the air, they fell into homes and on the land around them. Some bodies have been looted by other people for things like clothes and shoes, give them some dignity for god sake!

My heart goes out to all of the families and friends that are suffering.

[localzuk]

Watched the Dispatches documentary on this which was really interesting link below, it was very interesting although it really puts a face to the people that got killed in the tragic event

 

Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4

 

I think it's disgusting how the Ukrainian Government are just allowing the bodies to sit in the place they fell, no forensic evidence is yet able to take place as the Russian Militants are stopping anyone from going to the scene, people on the ground of Ukraine where reporting bodies just dropping from the air, they fell into homes and on the land around them. Some bodies have been looted by other people for things like clothes and shoes, give them some dignity for god sake!

My heart goes out to all of the families and friends that are suffering.

 

How is it the Ukraine government's fault that the bodies aren't being moved? The Ukraine government are effectively at war with an effective fighting force in that area. What could they do? Go in guns blazing? That'd help with the forensic investigation wouldn't it? You're underestimating how complex a situation it is.

[AMLinington]

Watched the Dispatches documentary on this which was really interesting link below, it was very interesting although it really puts a face to the people that got killed in the tragic event

 

Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4

 

I think it's disgusting how the Ukrainian Government are just allowing the bodies to sit in the place they fell, no forensic evidence is yet able to take place as the Russian Militants are stopping anyone from going to the scene, people on the ground of Ukraine where reporting bodies just dropping from the air, they fell into homes and on the land around them. Some bodies have been looted by other people for things like clothes and shoes, give them some dignity for god sake!

My heart goes out to all of the families and friends that are suffering.

 

The whole thing is appalling and I'm sure there will be stories emerging in the coming weeks of MH17 victims credit cards being used in Eastern Europe which will only add to the distress of the families having to deal with financial fraud at such a terrible time.

[SiliconAlley_Sam]

Another plane missing. Pretty terrifying.

[localzuk]

They were at the scene the same day. I think you assume its crawling with Russian special forces?

The Ukrainians from Kiev dont want to be there because the people who live there dislike them with a passion. They want to be free from the west.

 

Evidence of this? Every report I've seen, including those from the Russian side news sites, indicate that the people in control are the separatists. I've not actually seen any evidence that Ukrainian government personnel were there in fact. I've seen evidence that the OSCE have tried to get on to the site and have been turned away though.

[abillybob]

Evidence of this? Every report I've seen, including those from the Russian side news sites, indicate that the people in control are the separatists. I've not actually seen any evidence that Ukrainian government personnel were there in fact. I've seen evidence that the OSCE have tried to get on to the site and have been turned away though.

 

My evidence, here as posted before. Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4 You obviously haven't watched it so why are you arguing the case if you don't know what it does actually show?

 

There where militant soldiers all over the place including an international forensic scientist to investigate, the scientist was worried about speaking up to channel 4 around the soldiers as they where being threatened with guns, when he tried to go over to the bodes the soldiers told him to stop and MOVE! So to me that shows that the Government is trying to actively hide things, there was also a clip of a solider removing the Black Box, which was then rumoured to be taken to another part of the country under Putins control of which he still hasn't released the data.

 

Putin is poo'ing himself quite literally because Russia and his reputation internationally will be stamped on if and when we find out it was the Russian Military that shot the plane down.

 

Edit: Think logically for a moment it's been a week since this all happened and we still don't have anymore answers, the only way we knew it was shot down where due to America's surveillance technology that could prove a missile had been fired. If Russia was open and weren't trying to hide something we'd have the information from the blackbox we'd have the bodies back in the UK for the grieving parents and loved one's to bury and there wouldn't be an issue, no matter what you say it's disgusting that the Russian government has left the bodies just lying there!

Edited July 24, 2014 by abillybob

[localzuk]

My evidence, here as posted before. Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4 You obviously haven't watched it so why are you arguing the case if you don't know what it does actually show?

 

There where militant soldiers all over the place including an international forensic scientist to investigate, the scientist was worried about speaking up to channel 4 around the soldiers as they where being threatened with guns, when he tried to go over to the bodes the soldiers told him to stop and MOVE! So to me that shows that the Government is trying to actively hide things, there was also a clip of a solider removing the Black Box, which was then rumoured to be taken to another part of the country under Putins control of which he still hasn't released the data.

 

Putin is poo'ing himself quite literally because Russia and his reputation internationally will be stamped on if and when we find out it was the Russian Military that shot the plane down.

 

Edit: Think logically for a moment it's been a week since this all happened and we still don't have anymore answers, the only way we knew it was shot down where due to America's surveillance technology that could prove a missile had been fired. If Russia was open and weren't trying to hide something we'd have the information from the blackbox we'd have the bodies back in the UK for the grieving parents and loved one's to bury and there wouldn't be an issue, no matter what you say it's disgusting that the Russian government has left the bodies just lying there!

 

What are you talking about? OK, at this moment in time I don't have time to watch that particular show, yes, but you seem to be mixing up Ukrainian government with separatists militias. The men with guns, as the OSCE has pointed out many times, are militia, not government.

 

The black boxes were collected by the separatists - proven by the simple fact that it was the separatists who arranged with the Malaysian government to hand them over to them. The Malaysian govenment then gave them to the UK, who have confirmed they have not been tampered with and are legitimate. The first amount of bodies are now in the Netherlands, being identified and autopsied, before they will be returned to their countries of origin and their families.

 

So, again, the Ukrainian military are NOT at the crash site. The rebels/separatists/terrorists/whatever term you want to use for them are.

Edited July 24, 2014 by localzuk

[pcstru]

There where militant soldiers

Militant - I bet they were!

 

Perhaps you mean "militia" - which is the term being used for the Separatists who are in control of the area where the plane came down and who are fighting the Ukrainian regular forces.

[abillybob]

What are you talking about? OK, at this moment in time I don't have time to watch that particular show, yes, but you seem to be mixing up Ukrainian government with separatists militias. The men with guns, as the OSCE has pointed out many times, are militia, not government.

 

The black boxes were collected by the separatists - proven by the simple fact that it was the separatists who arranged with the Malaysian government to hand them over to them. The Malaysian govenment then gave them to the UK, who have confirmed they have not been tampered with and are legitimate. The first amount of bodies are now in the Netherlands, being identified and autopsied, before they will be returned to their countries of origin and their families.

 

So, again, the Ukrainian military are NOT at the crash site. The rebels/separatists/terrorists/whatever term you want to use for them are.

 

Ah there you have it sorry got confused

 

Militant - I bet they were!

 

Perhaps you mean "militia" - which is the term being used for the Separatists who are in control of the area where the plane came down and who are fighting the Ukrainian regular forces.

 

This ^^ Haha!

[Grey-gear]

I know this has little to do with this but another Airliner has gone missing this time over Africa.

 

BBC News - Algeria airliner missing on Sahara route from Burkina Faso

[SYNACK]

I know this has little to do with this but another Airliner has gone missing this time over Africa.

 

BBC News - Algeria airliner missing on Sahara route from Burkina Faso

 

Sounds like a good time to take a ferry instead with the current trend of planes not making it.

[abillybob]

Ugh I'm flying in 4 days and already scared of flying these things don't help

[GREED]

Sounds like a good time to take a ferry instead with the current trend of planes not making it.

 

Like the ferry went down around South Korea?

 

I think walking sounds a much safer option all round!

 

Or swimming

[localzuk]

Ugh I'm flying in 4 days and already scared of flying these things don't help

 

You seriously shouldn't worry about it.

 

Odds for dying:

 

Plane crash - 11 million to 1

Shark attack - 3.7 million to 1

Car crash - 5000 to 1

 

Chance of surviving a plane crash - 95.7%

[GREED]

You seriously shouldn't worry about it.

 

Odds for dying:

 

Plane crash - 11 million to 1

Shark attack - 3.7 million to 1

Car crash - 5000 to 1

 

Chance of surviving a plane crash - 95.7%

 

Agree with the odd on items 1 2 and 3.

 

But then.. WHAT! where did that stay come from? I will assume a plane crash in this case, as is usually the case, is where a crash is anything from hitting a bird while stationary on the runway to full blown nose dive... how many survive what generally is the big fall out of the sky and fireball type plane crash?

 

Also, the bigger the vehicle the less control over your own fate you have ;-)

[localzuk]

Agree with the odd on items 1 2 and 3.

 

But then.. WHAT! where did that stay come from? I will assume a plane crash in this case, as is usually the case, is where a crash is anything from hitting a bird while stationary on the runway to full blown nose dive... how many survive what generally is the big fall out of the sky and fireball type plane crash?

 

Also, the bigger the vehicle the less control over your own fate you have ;-)

 

Here you go - Big Question: What are the odds of surviving a plane crash? : Discovery Channel

 

Basically, most "crashes" aren't planes falling from the sky. They're planes having super hard landings and the plane sliding along the runway, or ditching in a river, or landing on abandoned runways with a race meeting on etc...

Edited July 24, 2014 by localzuk

[GREED]

Fair enough. Thanks for the link.

Be interesting to know the stats for the planes out of the sky crashes given now three (4 including today) high profile crashes in as many months... not to be morbid or anything

[jinnantonnixx]

There were around 1000 extra deaths on the road in the US in the period after 9/11 as more people shunned flying and chose the riskier option of driving.

 

How We Calculate Risk: Fear of Flying After 9/11 Led to Increase in Auto Deaths |

 

Once you've made it to the airport, the riskiest part of the journey is over.

Edited July 24, 2014 by jinnantonnixx

[AMLinington]

Okay, I'm done now. Bottom line is that as @GREED points out, the larger the vehicle the less control you have over your own fate. As a car driver, I can't control the stupidity of others but I CAN learn how to react to it and how to control my vehicle in extremis, as a plane passenger, if a bunch of terrorists 20 miles below me decide to launch a missile at the plane I'm . I hate travelling by Taxi because I often find a Taxi drivers driving to be worrisome. Ditto buses and coaches. I'm better with trains because while accidents can happen, the train travels on rails which to me is 'safer' than roads (yes, I realise this is probably fallacy but how I FEEL about something doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance to FACT). I get terribly travel sick on boats or ships so I don't travel on them if I can help it, but as a strong swimmer I am less concerned than I would be if I couldn't swim at all. So often how 'safe' a mode of transport is owes more to personal perception than to established statistical fact and the perception for me is that travelling by car when I am driving is 'safer' than getting on a bus (unpredictable fellow passengers, no seat belts, dodgy drivers etc) and definitely safer than getting into a big aluminium Pringles can and being launched into the sky above countries I'd never dare visit.

[Bananas]

Those stats on survival are pretty accurate, as pointed out earlier a lot of aircraft "disasters" don't end up with you heading towards the ground at mach 3.

 

Look at the BA crash in 2008 at Heathrow, the pilot just managed to get the plane over the perimeter fence before hitting the ground shearing the landing gear off and sliding to a halt. 100% survival rate.

 

Try watching air crash investigation it's on one of the documentary channels. Really fascinating stuff, how they figure it all out.

 

Even some of the big crashes you find 1 or 2 survivors sometimes.

[CAM]

I think a split will be for the best, Russia gets it's buffer zone and Kiev gets peace. It won't be in Kiev's interests though without some form of recompense for all the industries and resources in the East.