SIMS Registers and Fire Drills

[StevieM]

especially if anyone thinks a Fire Person would not risk their lives if attending a school fire but have a blasé attitude of 'There's probably no one in there, so let it burn, were off for tea and bickies.@ Seriously.

 

I don't think ANYONE has even remotely insinuated that.

 

If The combined Fire Services in this country don't think it is necessary to have a thing called a Fire Register maybe we should trust that one is not needed and stop trying to tell them their job.

The fact that we have done a head-count/taken a register may not be necessary for the Fire Brigade, but it may be necessary in accordance with school/LEA/government safeguarding children guidelines. If this is the case, it would be the Fire Brigade telling US how to do OUR job.

 

And just a few FTFYs

 

Simple facts.

Simple opinions

 

Don't need one.

[The Fire Brigade] don't need one. If the school governors says we need one, then we need one.

 

Won't be any use to have one.

Won't be any use [to the Fire Brigade] to have one. It may well be of use to the teacher/school.

 

They would not be accurate.

They may not be accurate. However, teacher's are generally pretty good at taking registers. They get enough practice!

 

They would be ignored.

They would be ignored [by the Fire Brigade], not by the school.

 

They won't save lives.

...but they may help to save a school's reputation in a negligence claim or, heaven forbid, a corporate manslaughter charge.

 

They are a complete waste of time.

If, by taking a register, I am reassured that every child for whom I have responsibility is safely accounted for - I would be happy to waste my time by taking a register twenty times over.

[creese]

I don't think ANYONE has even remotely insinuated that.

 

No. Directly.

 

And with that, and being dizzy from going round in circles.

[GREED]

 

Simple facts. Don't need one. Won't be any use to have one. They would not be accurate. They would be ignored. They won't save lives. They are a complete waste of time.

 

Yer... I'd like to hear a fire chief publicly say these things. I'm not saying that isn't what you have been told but I'd really like to have that on the record from the experts saying not to bother counting your kids out just leave it to them when they turn up and they will check everywhere for an unknown number of possibly missing kids...

 

As a parent, a school that took that policy, I would remove my child.

[matt40k]

LOL @GREED!! So when are you announcing your fire drill app?

 

Fact. The fire service will search the buildings regardless. Like @StevieM has said, this is getting into more of a safeguarding problem more then anything. Forget the fire scenario for a min, how do you know where little Jimmy is day-to-day, in a primary, they tend to stick in one class - easy, in secondary, they tend to move around, most schools would use Lesson Monitor like @creese spoke about, so you record attendance at each lesson rather then just AM/PM.

 

As a parent I would remove my child if the school policy is:

- to force a person to wait by a highly flammable printer whilst the "latest" register is printed

- rely on technology - connections drop out, batteries go flat, electronic devices fail, software crashes.

 

actually, heck, I'll remove my son if no-one in school knew who he was or didn't notice his lack of presence!

 

Printing a class list then having the headteacher \ head of year \ SLT with a copy of all them which they can grab on the way out IS THE BEST ANSWER. Having the current class teacher responsible for getting THEIR current class out safely should be their responsibility, they should then report anyone who wasn't in the classroom - ie going to the toilet to SLT or such. This will need to happen even with a superfluous electronic system, even with ID cards!

 

Interestedly, no one has questioned what happens if your school did burn down, and you lost your IT (sorry, IT equipment + fire = melted mess). How would you contact the parents of the child caught in the fire? Did you print the latest contact details on the register? Suddenly that annoying B2B task your LA keeps getting you to reset seems quite worthwhile.

[sparkeh]

Ok so I performed a quick google to see if I could find some advice on this.

In the first few results there showed advice from the Fire Service in Oxfordshire that clearly shows they expect roll call to be performed and reported to the attending officers.

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/content/fire-drill-routine-schools

Roll call

 

One person should be nominated to have overall responsibility to ensure that a roll call is conducted in the event of a fire alarm. They should use the following instructions:

 

• Immediately after classes have assembled at the assembly point, a roll call or count must be made to check that no-one is still inside.
  
• Any visitors or contractors on the premises at that time must be included.
  
• The count at the assembly point must be checked with the attendance registers and visitors book to verify that everyone is out of the building.
  
• Attendance registers and visitors books should be held at a central point and must be brought to the assembly point when the alarm sounds.
  
• Each teacher must report to the nominated person in charge of the evacuation to verify that everyone in their charge is accounted for or to inform him/her of the number of people missing.
  

Meeting the fire service

 

The person in charge of the roll call must identify him/herself to the fire service on their arrival. This will allow the fire officer to decide the necessary actions to be carried out by the fire service.

Typical information the fire service will want to know:

 

• Is everyone accounted for?
  
• If anyone is missing: how many? What is their usual location? Where were they last seen?
  
• Where is the fire? What is on fire? (It may not be apparent)
  
• Are there any hazardous substances involved in the fire or stored in the building (e.g chemicals, solvents, liquified petroleum gas or acetylene cylinders)?
  

This is published advice from the Fire Service, not hearsay about what some guy once said to me that can't possibly be substantiated

 

EDIT: Northumberland Fire and Rescue advice is pretty much the same:

http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=16805

The aim of evacuating all buildings is to attempt to carry out a roll call

 

There are more examples of other services advising the same but the point is made. So it seems official Fire Service advice is you need to do a roll call and report it to the Firemen...

Edited July 15, 2014 by sparkeh

[GREED]

LOL @GREED!! So when are you announcing your fire drill app?

I'm not, and clearly according to some here it would be a complete waste of time if one was to, because schools just shouldn't bother checking to see if their kids have all got out of a burning building alive...

 

Fact. The fire service will search the buildings regardless. Like @StevieM has said, this is getting into more of a safeguarding problem more then anything. Forget the fire scenario for a min, how do you know where little Jimmy is day-to-day, in a primary, they tend to stick in one class - easy, in secondary, they tend to move around, most schools would use Lesson Monitor like @creese spoke about, so you record attendance at each lesson rather then just AM/PM.

 

As a parent I would remove my child if the school policy is:

- to force a person to wait by a highly flammable printer whilst the "latest" register is printed

- rely on technology - connections drop out, batteries go flat, electronic devices fail, software crashes.

 

actually, heck, I'll remove my son if no-one in school knew who he was or didn't notice his lack of presence!

 

Printing a class list then having the headteacher \ head of year \ SLT with a copy of all them which they can grab on the way out IS THE BEST ANSWER. Having the current class teacher responsible for getting THEIR current class out safely should be their responsibility, they should then report anyone who wasn't in the classroom - ie going to the toilet to SLT or such. This will need to happen even with a superfluous electronic system, even with ID cards!

 

Interestedly, no one has questioned what happens if your school did burn down, and you lost your IT (sorry, IT equipment + fire = melted mess). How would you contact the parents of the child caught in the fire? Did you print the latest contact details on the register? Suddenly that annoying B2B task your LA keeps getting you to reset seems quite worthwhile.

 

I'm very much disinterested with a specific solution electronic or otherwise now. The fundamental 'facts' as keeps being quoted disturb me. App or printed list, or very bottom line each tutor knows who is missing, there absolutely has to be a roll call.

 

You talk about not realising a lack of presence... so what about when form tutor is absent and a cover teacher is in charge, perhaps supply or cover supervisor, who doesn't know each child in their class? Perhaps it is first day of the new school year?

 

I think sensibility comes into play too, no one is suggesting a staff member sit in a burning room printing lists. If the room is on fire the leave (I'd be concerned if a whole room was on fire before the fire alarms sounded!) If not then a quick routine to print lists is plausible.

 

Then back to a solution, which is the least likely in a tested scenario to fail, compromised with time, effort, Safety and many other factors. Does an app on a tablet that can be picked up in a second on the way out offer a better rounded solution than waiting for lists to print, given both can be inaccurate, against the chances the device fails...

 

And to be clear, I have never suggested a dedicated app for a fire register, I have leaned more towards and electronic function only, preferably one within the MIS either as a fire evac function or simply refer to the class or am/pm registers. I think that easily covers the need.

Edited July 16, 2014 by GREED

[GREED]

Ok so I performed a quick google to see if I could find some advice on this.

In the first few results there showed advice from the Fire Service in Oxfordshire that clearly shows they expect roll call to be performed and reported to the attending officers.

 

This is published advice from the Fire Service, not hearsay about what some guy once said to me that can't possibly be substantiated

 

EDIT: Northumberland Fire and Rescue advice is pretty much the same:

 

 

There are more examples of other services advising the same but the point is made. So it seems official Fire Service advice is you need to do a roll call and report it to the Firemen...

 

Spot on! Probably puts part of this conversation to bed now.

[matt40k]

so what about when form tutor is absent and a cover teacher is in charge, perhaps supply or cover supervisor, who doesn't know each child in their class? Perhaps it is first day of the new school year.

 

Heck that's bad luck, unfortunately bad luck tends to go together - but I didn't say I was against class lists!! That's my fail safe!

 

no one is suggesting a staff member sit in a burning room printing lists. If the room is on fire the leave (I'd be concerned if a whole room was on fire before the fire alarms sounded!) If not then a quick routine to print lists is plausible.

 

NO! Fire alarm = Exit building. It doesn't mean look around for a fire to assess how far away you are then head back to your desk, print the registers, then head to the printer, THEN exit the build. The point of a fire alarm is to tell you that you have a fire and you need to get it, it's not a question of distance.

 

If you want to print the latest up-2-date registers when you do a fire drill and turn it into a joint truancy exercise, by all means. You can print all the registers in advance.

 

Does an app on a tablet that can be picked up in a second on the way out offer a better rounded solution than waiting for lists to print, given both can be inaccurate, against the chances the device fails...

 

I know mine and prob @creese beef is school go into silly mode and buy thousands of pounds worth of wifi equipment to get the playground connected up and on mobile devices all for "safely", only for it to fail because of something silly like the power got shut off, or strangely the device failed - have you ever tried supporting a device on the playing field with no tools? Your options are almost as limited as your time. If you've ever worked in a large school you'll know devices fail day-2-day. Don't risk them failing on the worse day ever. If you're lucky enough to have a system in place, great, use it by all means, just don't forget to take those print class lists, the attendance absentee report and the visitor book - just in case.

[GREED]

Heck that's bad luck, unfortunately bad luck tends to go together - but I didn't say I was against class lists!! That's my fail safe!

 

 

 

NO! Fire alarm = Exit building. It doesn't mean look around for a fire to assess how far away you are then head back to your desk, print the registers, then head to the printer, THEN exit the build. The point of a fire alarm is to tell you that you have a fire and you need to get it, it's not a question of distance.

 

If you want to print the latest up-2-date registers when you do a fire drill and turn it into a joint truancy exercise, by all means. You can print all the registers in advance.

 

 

 

I know mine and prob @creese beef is school go into silly mode and buy thousands of pounds worth of wifi equipment to get the playground connected up and on mobile devices all for "safely", only for it to fail because of something silly like the power got shut off, or strangely the device failed - have you ever tried supporting a device on the playing field with no tools? Your options are almost as limited as your time. If you've ever worked in a large school you'll know devices fail day-2-day. Don't risk them failing on the worse day ever. If you're lucky enough to have a system in place, great, use it by all means, just don't forget to take those print class lists, the attendance absentee report and the visitor book - just in case.

 

Bad luck yes but a very common occurrence in reality.

 

Yes fire alarm means get out, thanks for reading the staff handbook. Reality = people always print out fire lists.

 

You suggest that apps and tech is not the answer. Ok that's fine you have plausible reasons. I don't disagree it has issues.

 

You suggest printing lists when the alarm sounds is not good. I agree too.

 

I suggest printing a list daily just in the event is a huge waste of resources.

 

So what is left if we agree with the published advice from the Fire service that a roll call should be taken? No tech, no paper list...

 

It is all a compromise. Which ensures people are kept as safe as possible?

[GREED]

Something perhaps like a scheduled report that puts the output to a Dropbox or similar, to which a tablet is always synced with. Aside from that device failing, a risk, there is no reliance on any other tech. In addition, the only expense is a tablet which I will assume most schools have some sort of mobile device to use with this (heck, have a few SLT staff's mobiles available!).

 

In the last school I worked in we spent a good deal of time putting DR procedures in places like a dedicated laptop, 3G Internet dongle etc etc not specific to fire but generally (and many other procedures besides). All to minimise chances of danger to staff as well as reliability to get at key information.

Edited July 16, 2014 by GREED

[matt40k]

I think I'm going to slap you with a mobile device at BETT at this rate! Sensitive data on Dropbox, why not just put it on pastebin and be done with it lol.

 

Dropbox aside, what happens if the schedule doesn't work? If the tablet battery is flat. If a million and one things.

 

Not quite sure how class lists are out-of-date? If your policy is to print a new one each time a new student starts, that's what 4 pages each time? Not really a waste of paper in the grand scheme of things. Remember, it would be insulting to your attendance officer if you assume because they were absent in the AM that they didn't arrive later.

 

Roll call should be who's physically infront of you, if you've ever been apart of it, you'll be aware of these late arrivals that the "up2date" list would have missed off.

 

It's also important to remember missing doesn't mean still in building, it could mean they are just bunking off at the local McD - which is why the fire crew will ignore any lists you give them of missing pupils (to a certain extent - its always nice to have a target no rather then between 0 - 1,000).

[StevieM]

Going back to the OP, although @cdunn93 has almost certainly already left the (burning) building, I'd recommend sticking with paper registers and buying an OMR to reduce the workload for admin staff!

[GREED]

Some shared folder of some description. Not Dropbox but that type of facility. used for description only!

 

Yes there are lots of if and buts.

 

The list should be for the day so one knows who is in and who is not. It rather pointless having the class roster, as what you most need to know is who is in and who is not. You need the daily absentee list for sure.

 

so then you are into the scenario of printing each day = huge waste. Consider schools where absenteeism is a huge issue.

 

We have established that while the fire brigade will ignore the list, it is still useful to them to identify numbers and possible locations of missing students. This is taken from Spartek research. If there is a fire and they sweep and find no one, come out and the HT says you are still missing a child, yes they might be in town, they might also still be trapped somewhere... need I go on?

[GREED]

Going back to the OP, although @cdunn93 has almost certainly already left the (burning) building, I'd recommend sticking with paper registers and buying an OMR to reduce the workload for admin staff!

 

Yes perhaps we should agree to disagree on the shortcomings of a fire evacuation and get back to the OP! :-D

 

Interesting debate though (and stayed friendly for once!).

[SteveB]

I saw Matt commenting on this on twitter and thought I would check it out. Very interesting thread with lots of arguments and counter arguments, But unless I have missed it, everyone is assuming that the fire would be very accommodating and only take hold after a registration had been taken.

 

What happens if the fire takes hold at 8.45, with pupil milling about in the fields, the playgrounds and sometimes in the school corridors on the way to registration? At this point they have not signed in or been registered.

 

Whatever procedure schools have in place for this scenario, is the one they should employ all of the time . . . .

 

Of course, this is a trick scenario and in the 7 years I have been rolling out SIMS in the classroom, when I pose this question, which I do every time, not one school has had an answer ready for me.

 

 

With that in mind, if schools want a system, I generally advise >

 

1. Pre-printed class lists to be taken to the roll call

2. Signing in/out books to be taken to the roll call

3. Absence lists to be printed after registration and used to highlight missing pupils

4. Fire Marshal area sweeps on exit

 

This is for the schools peace of mind only and as Phil Neal rightly says, the Fire Services will always assume there may be someone to save and will politely ignore your lists.

[JJEuropa]

Some of our schools that do electronic registration make use of laminated class lists with AM and PM or Period columns and teachers put a mark against those pupils that aren't in class. This is then taken out of school in the event of an evacuation/drill. Wiped clean at the end of the day ready to be reused.

 

However i agree with the comments above, this list would only be accurate for a very limited/specific point in time, unless constantly updated to take account of pupils movement during the rest of that period.

 

I suppose as a head count these lists give peace of mind to school staff but also agree the fire service would do a full sweep for anyone, not just children.

[BITS_BryanS]

I know this is a couple of months old, but local fire station had an open day last week, so I asked the question about registers. They said the school absolutely should have a fire register (and said there was legislation for this, but I can't remember the details).

 

If everyone was accounted for, a full sweep would still take place, but would depend on state of fire / risks etc. If someone was un-accounted for then a search would be a priority.

 

It was pretty clear cut as far as they were concerned.

[GREED]

Excellent

[CarpeDiem]

All of our staff have a list of kids in their class in their planners. They just retake the register when they get to fire assembly point. We are a large comprehensive (1800) with split site over a large area. They then send a runner from their line to the Fire Marshall.