Teacher stabbed to death at school in Leeds

[Roberto]

What a terrible tragedy. What on earth could have happened to cause the kid concerned to do this?

[tmcd35]

What on earth could have happened to cause the kid concerned to do this?

 

We can only speculate and may never know. Because of the childs age a lot of this case will be unreportable for legal reasons. BBC mentioned this morning that she was a Head of Year. If that's the case, then it may not be too difficulate to speculate how such a tragidy might occur. We are a small rural school, and yet we too get our fair share of troubled teens, often with highly disruptive home lifes, that pastoral staff are expected to deal with on a daily basis.

[Garacesh]

Completely agree. The lack of respect is damaging the learning of all children. Teachers are being undermined by unruly students and there's nothing they can do about it. Harsher sanctions can be put in place but there's no way to force a child to show adhere to them. I've seen it plenty of times when I've had to go up to our LSU, the 'naughty kids' refuse to do work and the staff there can tell them until they're blue in the face, but there's no way they can actually make them do it. They have their phone out and if a staff member makes a move to take it off them they put it in their inside blazer pocket because they know staff can't go for it (especially if the student is female).

 

Children now seem to only be afraid of physical harm, and they know that if a teacher physically hurts them (or even restrains them) they can be held seriously accountable for it (though don't get me wrong, accountability is always a good thing). I recall at one point having to investigate CCTV footage of a member of staff who had to physically restrain a student and escort him to isolation because this child was claiming the member of staff was unreasonable and malicious. Upon watching the footage, the child had actually attacked the member of staff, yet had the cheek to try and make the member of staff out to be violent and aggressive!

 

The problem, I believe, lies with the grounds of physical punishment. I'm not advocating it hitting a child, but they need to punished with some kind of physical activity - make them clean the building with the site staff, for example. Detention just isn't good enough as some outright refuse and don't show up, others sit there on games for half an hour. And the ones that don't show up, what happens? An escalated detention for a longer period of time. They refuse. Another detention, this time with the Head. What happens when they keep refusing? Well... Nothing. You can't just fire kids off who refuse to stand by the agreement they entered into when they became a pupil. And if you do finally manage to exclude a child, you have to take in one that got kicked out of someone else. The cycle continues.

 

Schools definitely need more power in how they are able to punish the children. I've seen 'good' kids start to slip because the authority of the teachers is constantly being undermined by a select minority. I'll admit that's what it is - a select minority - most of our kids are good kids. But when the person who is supposed to be in charge is consistently and repeatedly being seen as not being able to have control, there is a knock-on effect.

 

But alas, I'm not the one who makes the rules.

[CAM]

Wait...when did giving lines get banned? I remember being terrified of having to do those in middle school (our teacher called them definitions and we had to handwrite words and their meaning from a dictionary).

[abillybob]

Wait...when did giving lines get banned? I remember being terrified of having to do those in middle school (our teacher called them definitions and we had to handwrite words and their meaning from a dictionary).

 

I didn't think it had until I told a student to do so. I got a good telling off from the head as the parent complained about it. I don't think they're banned per-say although this student tried to make out I was making him do Slave Labour (Same as making him scrub the floor)! So don't even bother doing this kind of thing now.... well what can I do? Not much! Some kind of child protection company would be on my back telling me off!

[Garacesh]

this student tried to make out I was making him do Slave Labour (Same as making him scrub the floor)!

That would be a much more effective detention, if you asked me..

[AMLinington]

Part of why I gave up on teaching - when I was a kid and we were properly disciplined and our parents were allowed to discipline properly there was very little of this 'feral yoof' culture. The problem is lack of appropriate and proportionate discipline. The punishments just aren't enough of a deterrent. Parents don't care and don't discipline their children. When I was a trainee teacher I gave a disruptive class a whole-class detention and one of the little darlings turned up with a letter from her mum saying she wouldn't be attending my detention because her daughter said she wasn't involved. The point was to punish the whole class for getting out of hand and taking advantage of disruptive kids to derail the lesson. You can't win against the 'my kid is innocent' mentality. Parents should be allowed to spank their children. There is a huge difference between a spank and a beating.

[abillybob]

That would be a much more effective detention, if you asked me..

 

They used to make me scrape chewing gum off the bottom of tables!!! Can't do that anymore either, but trust me it stopped me misbehaving

[X-13]

The point was to punish the whole class for getting out of hand and taking advantage of disruptive kids to derail the lesson.

 

I'm sorry, but I'd be on your case if you threw my kid in detention because of something someone else did...

[abillybob]

I'm sorry, but I'd be on your case if you threw my kid in detention because of something someone else did...

 

But that's not the point, it's the impact it makes, the fact the bad kids have got the good kids in trouble can lead to embarrassment and upset and the good kids would blame those that where disrupting the lesson giving more of a punishment after the detention, no child wants to upset their peers they normally misbehave to show off in front of their friends. The bad children won't have done it again in fear they will upset their friends. Plus if a whole class is pretty much acting up it's hard to keep track of what student should be in detention and who shouldn't be! I'd agree with it.

[Garacesh]

But that's not the point, it's the impact it makes, the fact the bad kids have got the good kids in trouble can lead to embarrassment and upset and the good kids would blame those that where disrupting the lesson giving more of a punishment after the detention, no child wants to upset their peers they normally misbehave to show off in front of their friends. The bad children won't have done it again in fear they will upset their friends. Plus if a whole class is pretty much acting up it's hard to keep track of what student should be in detention and who shouldn't be! I'd agree with it.

 

Got to agree. If punishing the individual doesn't work, punish the entire group and have them voice their displeasure at the 'naughty' kids, it'll soon stem the flow of disruption. Although it reads to me that @AMLightfoot meant the 'bad' kids were being too disruptive and the 'good' kids were using that as an excuse to doss off. Realistically what should have been happening is the 'good' kids should have been telling the 'bad' kids to sit down and shut up. Peer pressure can be used in a positive way.

[localzuk]

RIP to the poor teacher and condolences to her family and friends. We've got our flag at half mast today.

 

Respect for teachers has plummeted, and it isn't helped by the government demonising them all the time. There are very few effective courses of action for misbehaviour now.

[Grey-gear]

The child involved sees lying down in the gutter with a bullet hole thorough his head as a carer option.

 

Not unless the student is named but as someone under the age of 16 they most likeily not give out the name or have the student name changed so a normal life can be obtianed after the matter is settled.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Grey-gear

[AMLinington]

Got to agree. If punishing the individual doesn't work, punish the entire group and have them voice their displeasure at the 'naughty' kids, it'll soon stem the flow of disruption. Although it reads to me that @AMLightfoot meant the 'bad' kids were being too disruptive and the 'good' kids were using that as an excuse to doss off. Realistically what should have been happening is the 'good' kids should have been telling the 'bad' kids to sit down and shut up. Peer pressure can be used in a positive way.

 

Exactly this. It's a recognised behaviour management technique we were taught about in teacher training. What happened was that the usual group of 4 disruptive students (2 of which were called Jack - make of that what you will) were playing up. This draws teacher attention away from the rest of the class. So the rest of the class were using the 'cover' of the disruption to ignore instructions, get up from their seats and wander around. Girls were playing about on their mobile phones, a couple of boys were tossing some beanbag ball thing about. There was so much generalised misbehaviour that in the end I put the whole class in detention because I simply couldn't proportionately punish each child depending on what % of the disruption he or she was involved in. The end result was that the task I had set the class was NOT completed by a SINGLE CHILD. Including the supposed 'innocent' girl. Therefore the bottom line was that I set a task, they chose to use the disruptive kids as an excuse not to do the task I set and to mess about so I set the whole class a lunchtime detention during which they would spend the time completing the task they failed to do. The point of the punishment was that they wasted the lesson time messing about, so I would use their 'free time' to complete the task. I thought this was a fairly reasonable and proportionate response actually.

[tommej]

But that's not the point, it's the impact it makes, the fact the bad kids have got the good kids in trouble can lead to embarrassment and upset and the good kids would blame those that where disrupting the lesson giving more of a punishment after the detention, no child wants to upset their peers they normally misbehave to show off in front of their friends. The bad children won't have done it again in fear they will upset their friends. Plus if a whole class is pretty much acting up it's hard to keep track of what student should be in detention and who shouldn't be! I'd agree with it.

 

When I was at school if my parents were contacted they would always side with the school/teacher, no matter how much I protested. It seems these days parents always side with their little darlings no matter what evidence the school provides. I think some parents would be shocked at what we see daily in classrooms.

 

It would be interesting to see the behavioural past of the student, I wonder if the school had tried to exclude him in the past.

Edited April 29, 2014 by tommej

[AMLinington]

When I was at school if my parents were contacted they would always side with the school/teacher, no matter how much I protested. It seems these days parents always side with their little darlings no matter what evidence the school provides. I think some parents would be shocked at what we see daily in classrooms.

 

It would be interesting to see the behavioural past of the student, I wonder if the school had tried to exclude him in the past.

 

This too. I think most parents of 'innocent' kids who claim they'd have a problem with a teacher disciplining their child for something they apparently, allegedly 'didn't do' would be surprised and probably shocked to watch a fly-on-the-wall video of their child during school hours. Children lie to their parents. This is fact. 'No mum, I promise it wasn't me. I didn't do it'. No, maybe not directly but would you as a parent be happy to see your little darling braiding her friends hair instead of learning about Newton's laws of motion? Would you as a parent be happy to see a candid video of your son with his shirt untucked gobbing off to a teacher or using a marker pen he STOLE to draw penises on the desk instead of doing the assigned exercise on combustion? I'm certain you didn't buy your son a permanent marker as an appropriate school stationary item so clearly he came into possession of it via illicit means - either by taking it from home (which he knows he shouldn't be doing) or by stealing it from another student/teacher/stock cupboard.

 

As a parent, instead of gobbing off to the teacher about how innocent your child is, you should be educating your child that this behaviour by others is affecting their education and empowering them to do something about it.

 

If SOME of that class had completed the task I would have stated that only those with uncompleted tasks would be required at the detention. But since I asked them to show me their work on the way out the door and barely a single child had even bothered to start it, regardless of how innocent dear Sophia (pseudonym) was in chucking stuff about, she took advantage of the chaos to doss off. This was as much worthy of detention as anything else.

[Earthling]

Not unless the student is named but as someone under the age of 16 they most likeily not give out the name or have the student name changed so a normal life can be obtianed after the matter is settled.

 

Why should the child be entitled to a 'Normal Life'?

 

The poor lady's family will never again have a 'Normal Life'.

[Grey-gear]

Why should the child be entitled to a 'Normal Life'?

 

The poor lady's family will never again have a 'Normal Life'.

 

I know and agree with you, but it has happened in the past were a person under the age on 16 has murdered someone and then later after serving their time been able to have a normalish life. Until all the facts come light we can only guess how this will play out.

[tmcd35]

Why should the child be entitled to a 'Normal Life'?

 

The poor lady's family will never again have a 'Normal Life'.

 

While I agree and deeply sympathise with the teacher family, your question assumes the pupil lead anything remotely like a 'Normal Life' leading up to the incident. As I said above we may never know all the facts and can only speculate. I think there's likely to be some major child protection and social services issues surrounding this case.

Edited April 29, 2014 by tmcd35

[Ketlane]

May I post a slightly sideways comment? I've been following this thread here, and a matching one on TES Online. The discussion here has in the main been much more professional and concerned much more with the effects on the people involved. I am as impressed by the professionalism here as I am disappointed with some of the posts on TES.

My views: my heart goes out to the victim's family, to her friends and colleagues, to the staff who will be picking things up as I write, and also to the pupils who will have been witnesses to the attack. Nothing much else matters at all. Our thoughts are with them as they try to rebuild and come to terms with it all.

[AMLinington]

May I post a slightly sideways comment? I've been following this thread here, and a matching one on TES Online. The discussion here has in the main been much more professional and concerned much more with the effects on the people involved. I am as impressed by the professionalism here as I am disappointed with some of the posts on TES.

My views: my heart goes out to the victim's family, to her friends and colleagues, to the staff who will be picking things up as I write, and also to the pupils who will have been witnesses to the attack. Nothing much else matters at all. Our thoughts are with them as they try to rebuild and come to terms with it all.

 

I can't imagine how terrified the other students in the class were to watch the attack happen. That sort of thing changes a person.

 

It has to be said though that this tragic event has made me think a lot about some of the recent controversies in the news and alarmist rantings about the 'nanny state' and how bad CCTV in classrooms is I can't help but think that with the way things are going with the challenges teachers face in managing student behaviour and the reports of physical assault on teachers rising we are approaching a breaking point and we are going to have to rethink the entire classroom format because before long it won't be safe for pupils OR teachers.

 

When you look at pupil behaviour in places like China where discipline is strict and in countries where having an education is a privilege, pupils WANT to be at school, work hard and pay attention. This is because their society and communities VALUE education. Education is not a valued thing in this country. Leaving the 'benefit scroungers' out of it for the moment, we have many pupils who work hard and get a degree only to end up unemployed or not working in their chosen sector. We hear from companies who interview these students and their degree is barely worth the paper it's written on because it has no practical use or experience. Perhaps we should re-examine the whole role of education in this country. Perhaps we should educate the 'basics' in primary and 'middle' school then offer more varied education pathways that are more focussed on the practical and vocational. Instead of doing A-levels in 'Chemistry' for example, perhaps we should educate in Science to an entry level then involve industry partners like Glaxo Smithkline in a more vocational pathway where the 'classroom learning' is combined with industry placement and shadowing so the pupil comes out at the end of X years with vocational Biochemistry qualifications and experience. So when they go off to university to study Pharmacology they a) know what the industry is actually like and b) have some practical 'lab time' experience so when they come out at the end they have real marketable skills to take to employers.

[CAM]

I know and agree with you, but it has happened in the past were a person under the age on 16 has murdered someone and then later after serving their time been able to have a normalish life. Until all the facts come light we can only guess how this will play out.

 

Easiest way to explain it: "Are you the same person now as you were aged 16?"

 

Very very few people could say yes to that question. We undergo some tremendous changes to our inner and outer selves during puberty and moving into our 20s. By 25+ someone can be a totally different person to when they were a teenager. I say 'can' because some don't change...

 

A jail sentence will still screw up the student's life, and it should. But if they get released aged 35 after a 20 year sentence I wouldn't expect the same person as they were at 16 to emerge from the prison gates.

[Earthling]

While I agree and deeply sympathise with the teacher family, your question assumes the pupil lead anything remotely like a 'Normal Life' leading up to the incident. As I said above we may never know all the facts and can only speculate. I think there's likely to be some major child protection and social services issues surrounding this case.

 

My question didn't assume anything other than the 'child' killed another person.

[tmcd35]

My question didn't assume anything other than the 'child' killed another person.

 

My apologies. Perhaps "implies" might have been a better choice of words than "assumes". My point stands though, as horrendous as the idea might be, the pupil could just as easily be a victim a wider tragic story. We don't know all the facts. Maybe with rehabilitation the individual does deserve the chance at a "normal life"?

[gwendes]

An obviously severely troubled/damaged child kills somebody and people start crying out that society is going down the plughole, that children have no respect, or even fear?!

 

Who wants children to fear the staff? That's ridiculous. I sit here as a teacher shouts loudly enough to be heard by me in the next room. I know that when I was at school that turned me off to showing them the automatic 'respect' that was expected.

 

This is a very sad, very isolated, case and shouldn't be used to draw any conclusions from. Stop trying to solve problems that you're convinced exist because you've only used a case study of one student, one teacher. The world isn't black and white.