Who does your network cabling??

[maniac]

Blimy, I only started this thread to gage whether other schools did any of their own cabling or not, wasn't expecing a full scale debate on the rights and wrongs of it all.

 

Different school and managers do things in different ways, there's nothing wrong with getting contractors in if you can find a good one, but this was the problem we were having, hence the reason we've done this latest lot ourselves.

 

I agree about the issues with garunteeing the work, but the work we've done is to a much higher standard than a lot of the other cabling work in this building, so we're happy with it. I can agree that the chances are we won't be using the same cabling in 20yrs time, so a 20yr garuntee is a little pointless IMO.

 

No we havn't Fluke tested our installation, but again neither did any of the contractors we've used in the past. The only contractor we approached who offered this as part of their installation was priced way above what this school can afford.

 

Mike.

[e_g_r]

That then is where we go wrong.

 

A good example here is where the cat6 links were tested inependently last year and found to be all non complient!!!!

 

Do you know the difference in running Cat5e and Cat6?

 

If 10 years ago we had had a 20 year guarantee then we could have had it all replaced!!!! (Cat5 not the cat6)

 

If you don't fluke test how do you know if your cable is running as it should?

 

The Pro's Fluke - including keeping their flukes upto date and graduated.

 

Your post shows how nieve we as NM's and Techies can be. In the past any body thought they could install data. Prime example is electritians being sub cintracted in new builds.

 

When employing cablers make sure they know exactly what you expect and build in penalty clauses. Check what they are doing and make sure they see you doing this.

 

If your infrastructure isn't right then you can have all the servers and stuff you want but your end user may not be getting the full benefit.

[enjay]

as for a 20 year guarantee whats the point, we will not be using the same cable in 20 years anyway, we probably won't be using the same in 10 years.

We're still using some cabling which dates back to the school's first installation so is now 19 years old...

[dave.81]

In 2000/2001 i was imployed freelance with a couple of mates to install the start of the college network, around 200 points and 4 fibre runs. We did it for a lot less than any contractor quoted and still paid ourselves a healthy sum. Since then we have used 3 different contractors and would never go back to running cables myself. I will re-terminate the odd point but i am employeed to run the network, pc's and servers not crawl through lofts to lay cable.

 

The first contractor we used was sh1t and we are still slowly replacing all the cabling they did(was before i started work here). Since i have used 2 contractors both local, we have only changed recently due to illness but both ACNetworks and DATALAN have done a brilliant job and are reasonable priced. Currently having one of our boarding house's re-cabled from the ground up would i want to do this no, could i do this yes as i did it orignally 7 years ago. But as i've said i'm network manager not cabling installer, whiteboard installer or electrical installer that is what contractors are for.

[Disease]

Disease

 

How are you testing your cables? How do you source your parts. Cheapest? or looking at specs etc..

 

We use a computerised Cable tester that gives and saves all informnation about the run.

 

Bit offensive saying you wouldn't employ me when you don't know me. If you had the report on the 10 years worth of cabling that i inherited it may current school it would make you think more about paying to get it done right and right first time.

 

It's not offensive, I just would not hire you if you could not cable, same as I would not hire you if you were not willing to use power tools.

 

when you see a real proffesional do it with the twists right down to the module, the lack of compression and clean pull throughs then you might know what i am talking about.

 

I know what you are talking about

 

Hope you keep your cable runs away from power, water, gas and flourescent appliences. If you use basket tray i hope you also use liners as you will end up getting compression points in time if you havn't. Do you cable tie? another source of compression!

 

Yes and no we don't cable tie

 

do you lable your trays for data only so that in a years time an electrician won't think 'i'll run my cable along that'.

 

Yes, I have a good relationship with the school electricians

 

Do you ensure that contractors are aware that they can't use your data runs and if so do you check this?

 

yes

 

I'm talking from bitter experience but could call you nieve.

 

How?

 

Hope your not doing the electrical work on your whiteboard installs? Or are you NIC EIC approved

 

It would be illegal for me to run anything other than an extension, we get an electrician in to feed power where we need it.

 

The guarantee does not cover you if:

 

Someone drills through the cables

Vandalism to the cable

Vandalism to the sockets

 

As there are no moving parts is the reason why they are happy to give a 20 year guarantee as there is nothing that can go wrong. unless someone inteferes with the cable nothing will go wrong with it.

[Disease]

But as i've said i'm network manager not cabling installer, whiteboard installer or electrical installer that is what contractors are for.

 

I am a Network Manager as well, but I suppose it depends on what sort of Network Manager you are, I am a hands on best Value for money for my school type of network manager.

[e_g_r]

How would you test someones competency in cableing?

 

Computerised? what make and model. Do you keep it calibrated and firmwared up?

 

do you check what they are doing?

 

The guarantee is for the whole install and is quite oftem the kind of thing that MOD and government require.

 

Nieve? Get your work checked out by someone independent.

 

Personaly i have to much other stuff to do without doing donkey work.

 

My main point is if you do the pre install stuff right then the contactor will have to do the job right.

 

What accreditation do you hold in data cabling

[e_g_r]

Best value for money!

 

Thats what they did here. Buy cheap get cheap.

[Grommit]

As Jake said we do everything here, as for a 20 year guarantee whats the point, we will not be using the same cable in 20 years anyway, we probably won't be using the same in 10 years.

 

Bet you we will... Cat5e is here to stay for a very long time

[Disease]

How would you test someones competency in cableing?

 

Computerised? what make and model. Do you keep it calibrated and firmwared up?

 

do you check what they are doing?

 

The guarantee is for the whole install and is quite oftem the kind of thing that MOD and government require.

 

Nieve? Get your work checked out by someone independent.

 

Personaly i have to much other stuff to do without doing donkey work.

 

My main point is if you do the pre install stuff right then the contactor will have to do the job right.

 

What accreditation do you hold in data cabling

 

You will always continue to try and find some small excuse as to why you should not do it, so therefore the arguement we are having is pointless, you don't want to do it and thats fine. I have the same things to do that you have to do and I still managed to do al my own installs with my team.

[Jake]

See I'm lucky, cause everything is a short run from my cage

[e_g_r]

How would you test someones competency in cableing?

 

Computerised? what make and model. Do you keep it calibrated and firmwared up?

 

do you check what they are doing?

 

The guarantee is for the whole install and is quite oftem the kind of thing that MOD and government require.

 

Nieve? Get your work checked out by someone independent.

 

Personaly i have to much other stuff to do without doing donkey work.

 

My main point is if you do the pre install stuff right then the contactor will have to do the job right.

 

What accreditation do you hold in data cabling

 

You will always continue to try and find some small excuse as to why you should not do it, so therefore the arguement we are having is pointless, you don't want to do it and thats fine. I have the same things to do that you have to do and I still managed to do al my own installs with my team.

 

You just don't seem to be able to answer some of my questions.

 

Carry on and do what you think is best. I hope you are doing it right. What i don't like is saving a penny but having to spend a pound latter.

[maniac]

Do you know the difference in running Cat5e and Cat6?

.

 

I do know the standards for CAT5e, but not CAT6, hence I wouldn't install Cat6 cable

 

If you don't fluke test how do you know if your cable is running as it should?

 

Well I don't know for sure, but I followed the same cable trays and trunking that was already installed and already has data cable running though it. The ends were terminated to a better standard that most in this building, and it works so I'm happy with that. I will keep an eye on the switch controlling the new cabling to see if it reports any errors on the new ports, this should give me a good idea if there are any problems.

 

If your infrastructure isn't right then you can have all the servers and stuff you want but your end user may not be getting the full benefit.

 

I agree entirely with you on this point. Whos to say my cabling isn't up-to-scratch thou? Like I say, we have a lot of sub-standard cabling in this building that is a lot worse than the installation I've just done. All this cabling works perfectly fine, so there's no reason to say my new cabling won't.

 

Mike.

[FN-GM]

I am the sort of person who will not get other people in if I can do the job myself & if i had time to do the job. I would prefer to do things like this myself because you do it exactly how you want it. I have read bad stories of cable contactors on this forum who charge a fortune for a cock-up. So that waste's money and time. Why not get it right the first time and do it yourself if it is possible, Its not exactly hardwork plus you will save the tax payer a little money and also the money you save could help the children get a better quality education if the money saved is spent in the right areas.

[Disease]

Maniac just get yourself a decent cable tester they cost around £1500 but are worth it if you install your own cable, it runs all the certification tests and allows you to print warranties. Well worth it, then there is no arguement as to whether your cable is certified. Thats all outside companies do.

[FN-GM]

Here are some examples of bodged jobs http://www.edugeek.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11362 take a look at gatt

[e_g_r]

Bear in mind that its not about faults found by the switch but about through put to the desktop.

 

I'm not knocking DIY but rather want people to realise that if you are in control of the install and have pre install agreements and penalty clauses then a professional should be better.

 

As someone else pointed out some of this cable has been in 15+ years so we have to live with these installs for a long time so right first time must be the mantra.

 

Getting a good contactor is a must and like anything if you base is on price then you may fall foul.

[Disease]

I am the sort of person who will not get other people in if I can do the job myself & if i had time to do the job. I would prefer to do things like this myself because you do it exactly how you want it. I have read bad stories of cable contactors on this forum who charge a fortune for a cock-up. So that waste's money and time. Why not get it right the first time and do it yourself if it is possible, Its not exactly hardwork plus you will save the tax payer a little money and also the money you save could help the children get a better quality education if the money saved is spent in the right areas.

 

Well said.

 

I am not trying to have a go at anyone or say they should do it this way or that, what I have is the "I am not trained to do that" culture and the H&S culture that is killing this country. What ever happened to the "I got off my arse and learned to do it myself" culture. Thats what we need more of.

[e_g_r]

Decent tester £1500 what about the higher end ones? Or are they a waste of money. Why not spend a bit less than £1500 must give the same results?

 

FN-GM - i'm not denying you get bodge jobs. Thts because people arn't in control. Thats why i'm talking pre install agreements, penalty clauses and independent checking. If a contrator said no to this kind of thing them run a mile.

[Disease]

Bear in mind that its not about faults found by the switch but about through put to the desktop.

 

I'm not knocking DIY but rather want people to realise that if you are in control of the install and have pre install agreements and penalty clauses then a professional should be better.

 

As someone else pointed out some of this cable has been in 15+ years so we have to live with these installs for a long time so right first time must be the mantra.

 

Getting a good contactor is a must and like anything if you base is on price then you may fall foul.

 

I do agreewith you on that matter that you mdo need to get decent clauses in any contracts.

[maniac]

Getting a good contactor is a must and like anything if you base is on price then you may fall foul.

 

Doesn't everything revolve around price in the education sector? It certainly does at this school!

[knthrak]

Disease

 

A little bit of knowledge is dangerous and unless you have obtained all the relevant British standards concerning building regulations and become fully conversant with all existing requirements and the numerous amendments you are not competent to conduct any installation work within your building. You need to show total compliance with BS7671, the IEE 16th Edition Wiring Regulations to undertake any electrical installation.

 

There is a big difference between being able to do something and being competent and legally authorized to do it. Just because you can get a cable from A – B and connect it correctly at each end does not make it correct. Even if you are getting good test results from it does not mean that it is safe or correctly installed.

 

Your argument “What sort of Guarantee do you give the school that Active Directory will work fine” is a fair point but not compelling as Active directory doesn’t have the capacity to kill the end users when it goes wrong.

[Disease]

How exactly does Cat5E kill people? What are they going to do, eat it and choke on it?

[e_g_r]

How many times has price come and bitten you on the Arse?

 

We once purchased a mobile laptop solution and were pressured into cutting costs. Result - the worst charging trolley you could imagine.

[Jake]

On the other hand of course, I prefer moodle over the more expensive VLE solution our LEA has picked. Like all things in life, cutting costs works both ways in pros and cons