koryo Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Hi everyone I have been given a link to a new type of decentralized digital currency system that looks like it is being developed, their project funding page is below. My apologies if it is against the rules to post it here - but as it is the original page link I will put it here, please feel free to remove if it is against the site's terms of use : The Hashcoin Project - Projects - Community - Greatworth - Crowdfunding, UK fundraising platform for community, business and creative projects | Crowdfunder Could I get peoples opinion on the above? Do you think that digital currency is the way forward in regards to payment systems? With the growing popularity of Bitcoin do you think that this may be something we see more of in the future? For fairness purposes - I have pledged, but really am after a good conversation with regards to the above.
MordyT Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I'm sorry, but what is the advantage of this over bitcoin exactly? Seems like another clone of the concept, but why would people want this over bitcoin, etc?
Sdrawkcab Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) It's deflationary so it can't work as an actual currency people use to buy things, same as most (all?) of the other cryptos. Sorry. It says it has real-time transactions but what does that actually mean? Payments are processed and confirmed instantly? If so, that makes it better than bitcoin (which is imo terrible and needs to die) already. However, it still has mining and transaction fees. If the transaction confirmation process works anything like bitcoin, that means large delays on transaction processing (as they're processed in blocks/batches) if you don't include large fees. Delays in payment processing means that it can't work as a currency in actual real-world situations. Sorry, this just looks like another libertarian play-money pump-and-dump scam to me. Edit: Also I love how cryptos always market themselves with "NO CHARGEBACKS!!!!" like that's a good thing..... Have the people who make them ever tried selling any electronics on ebay? Chargebacks are an absolute necessity in situations like that. Edited February 19, 2014 by Sdrawkcab
PotNoodleTech Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Bought some stuff from Scan.co.uk last night using a little bit of bitcoin I had lying around (only 0.2BTC). The process was utterly easy, dropping mid merchant to my wallet and copy and pasting the address and price and then back to merchant (a bit like dropping into paypal to pay and then coming back to merchant?). It would be even easier if I had a wallet on my phone and could just scan the QR code provided and job done. I don't know what the fuss is about with bitcoin - it's eminently usable as a payment method. Litecoin would be even quicker and better, dodgecoin even quicker and better again almost instant payments.
Driftingashore Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 It's deflationary so it can't work as an actual currency people use to buy things, same as most (all?) of the other cryptos. I don't know of any others, but Dogecoin is inflationary. It's also worth keeping in mind that even the "deflationary" coins are actually inflationary until the mining cap has been reached (and for Bitcoin that could be a very long time). There's also a lot more affecting the market price of cryptos than whether the coin is inflationary or not.
koryo Posted February 21, 2014 Author Posted February 21, 2014 Unfortunately I don't know enough about currencies and how they work to comment on the inflation / deflation. However I do like the idea of being able to transfer "money" instantly, no cash points or banks required, no centralized point of failure (like banks), immediate access when required (as long as you have an internet connection and electricity, that in our current climate is nearly all the time), and the ability to "earn" extra funds by mining. (Yes I appreciate there is a point where "mining" is not profitable due to electricity payments, but it is an option). It is such a shame that Mt Gox has closed it's doors currently, causing a rather large issue for people with Bitcoins stored there, but as they are storing their coins in the hands of My Gox, that would be like storing your funds in a bank. Am i missing anything with regards to electronic currencies above? and what makes one electronic / crypto currency better than another? (other than payment times as mentioned above?)
featured_spectre Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 The cryptocurrencies can die a death. They serve little purpose, have little intrinsic value and are done to death. I mined a coin in a pool. Made roughly £50 after expenses. Cashed out ASAP to pay the bills and stuff. Many places that accepted bitcoins are already pulling them from their websites so it shows they no longer have faith in them.
koryo Posted February 24, 2014 Author Posted February 24, 2014 The cryptocurrencies can die a death. They serve little purpose, have little intrinsic value and are done to death. I mined a coin in a pool. Made roughly £50 after expenses. Cashed out ASAP to pay the bills and stuff. Many places that accepted bitcoins are already pulling them from their websites so it shows they no longer have faith in them. May I ask why you have this point of view nephilim? Does the concept of a decentralized currency not reliant on a central authority not appeal as a safer solution than central banking systems? Please share your views if you wish 1
featured_spectre Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) May I ask why you have this point of view nephilim? Does the concept of a decentralized currency not reliant on a central authority not appeal as a safer solution than central banking systems? Please share your views if you wish Not that it doesn't appeal to me. I would happily have a global currency if we could get it too work properly. The trouble I have with it is the severe lack of financial transparency and the lack of regulation. Without the latter hyperinflation will start (already did with bitcoins) and people invest heavily. Then a crash where the inflation has gotten ridiculous and untenable and people pull out and complain. I can think of a couple of places where this happened in real life also. Zimbabwe in recent years (people invested heavily because of the diamond exports and precious gems and mineral exports, currency hyper inflated and people pulled out making it worthless) and Germany in the mid to late 1920s. Edited February 25, 2014 by featured_spectre
Sdrawkcab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Does the concept of a decentralized currency not reliant on a central authority not appeal as a safer solution than central banking systems? Please share your views if you wish Ahahahahaha are you actually serious? An unregulated market is a terrible idea, Bitcoin has proven that time and time again. Our problem is that we don't have enough regulation on the banking industry, not that we have too much. None of these cryptocurrencies will ever be anything more than libertarian play money. Also does anybody else think it looks a bit suspicious that Skytower seems to have registered on here specifically to shill hashcoin? Edited February 25, 2014 by Sdrawkcab
koryo Posted February 25, 2014 Author Posted February 25, 2014 Not that it doesn't appeal to me. I would happily have a global currency if we could get it too work properly. The trouble I have with it is the severe lack of financial transparency and the lack of regulation. Without the latter hyperinflation will start (already did with bitcoins) and people invest heavily. Then a crash where the inflation has gotten ridiculous and untenable and people pull out and complain. I can think of a couple of places where this happened in real life also. Zimbabwe in recent years (people invested heavily because of the diamond exports and precious gems and mineral exports, currency hyper inflated and people pulled out making it worthless) and Germany in the mid to late 1920s. I thought that every transaction in the original bitcoin network had to be verified and replicated to every bitcoin miner as part of the verification process? is that not transparent finances? or am i misunderstanding you? with regards to hyper inflation it seems that every currency in any location will have one form of problem or another occur, from a recession to a hyper inflation, is this not the norm for currencies in general? Can you give me an example of the regulations your mentioning?
flyinghaggis Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Well, if Bitcoin is the future of currency you'd best buckle up cause it's gonna be a bumpy and volatile ride! The failure of Mt. Gox could be a mortal wound for bitcoin – Quartz Regardless of the maths and logic involved I still have doubts about whether a currency that isn't backed by a government/nation or some kind of commodity is really sustainable in the long term.
featured_spectre Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 I thought that every transaction in the original bitcoin network had to be verified and replicated to every bitcoin miner as part of the verification process? is that not transparent finances? or am i misunderstanding you? with regards to hyper inflation it seems that every currency in any location will have one form of problem or another occur, from a recession to a hyper inflation, is this not the norm for currencies in general? Can you give me an example of the regulations your mentioning? By transparency I mean actual traceability. Every financial transaction that is done via a bank is traceable. It is for tax and regulation reasons. Recessions and hyperinflation are rare to the extent we have today. The last recession that had this effect was in the 30's. Before that I am not sure. And even fewer countries have had hyperinflation. Bitcoins are going through a hyperinflation right now. Their value was at $1000 per btc less than a month ago. Now (at time of posting) it is $435 and still declining. MtGox was primary bank if you will. It's gone balls up due to no regulations and now the entire btc community is feeling it. As for regulations I am on about, feel free to look up UK banking regulations or EU banking regulations or us bank regulations. Whichever takes your pick.
Sdrawkcab Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) I thought that every transaction in the original bitcoin network had to be verified and replicated to every bitcoin miner as part of the verification process? is that not transparent finances? or am i misunderstanding you? Who is actually making those transactions though? Bitcoin addresses aren't linked to actual real people, which is why the protocol is a criminals wet dream. Money laundering has never been easier - now you can do it algorithmically! Get scammed? Too bad, no chargebacks! Someone break into your wallet? Oh that's too bad, now all your bitcoins are gone! None of those examples would happen if the money was kept in an actual bank account. If the bank gets robbed, you don't lose your money. with regards to hyper inflation it seems that every currency in any location will have one form of problem or another occur, from a recession to a hyper inflation, is this not the norm for currencies in general? Are you actually serious? Look at the rate of inflation for Bitcoin between January and December 2013 and then compare it to the rate of inflation for the pound in that time. They are vastly different. It's not really fair to compare what you'd call hyperinflation for real money with the inflation experienced by bitcoin, since bitcoin is orders of magnitude more unstable than any real currency. All cryptocurrencies are little more than libertarian toy money. They can never and will never replace actual money as a method of exchange for goods. Once the bubble bursts (if it hasn't burst already), the only people using bitcoin will be people who want to buy drugs or other illegal things. Stop spouting standard internet libertarian rhetoric and use your brain. Edited February 26, 2014 by Sdrawkcab 1
featured_spectre Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 I approve of this message @Sdrawkcab!
LosOjos Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Also does anybody else think it looks a bit suspicious that Skytower seems to have registered on here specifically to shill hashcoin? Extremely; I don't think I've ever seen anybody get so excited over a company's new website before. As for cryptocurrency, it's easy to get caught up in all the hype and I must admit I'm mighty jealous of those early BC adopters who put in very little for huge returns, but you might as well look at them as lottery winners, their chances of such huge returns were almost as slim as that jackpot win. If you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, chuck some at it; just don't expect to get it back (if you do, bonus!)
featured_spectre Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Just read this gem on the hashcoin project... • Fewer risks for merchants - Hashcoin transactions are secure, irreversible, and do not contain customers' sensitive or personal information. This protects merchants from losses caused by fraud or fraudulent chargebacks, and there is no need for PCI compliance. Well if they were using hashcoin cards, then they'd need PCI compliance, so thats a fallacy right there. Transactions being irreversable, also a bad thing, because once the merchant has the money, and you dont receive your item, you've lost your money and you're fudged. What are the disadvantages of Hashcoin? • Degree of acceptance - Many people will remain unaware of Hashcoin. Every day, more businesses will accept hashcoins because they want the advantages of doing so, but the list will remain small at the outset and will need to grow in order to benefit from network effects. Uhhh...well if the growth doesn't happen, you have a very small and finite amount of businesses accepting it, and people will be unhappy to say the least as you billed it as the next bitcoin. Also it is going on about being mathematically secure, and wont lose out to anything as it isn't tied to gold or silver. No, it is tied to maths because being tied to an actual tangible resource is apparently bad! Hmmm.
Sdrawkcab Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 As for cryptocurrency, it's easy to get caught up in all the hype and I must admit I'm mighty jealous of those early BC adopters who put in very little for huge returns, but you might as well look at them as lottery winners, their chances of such huge returns were almost as slim as that jackpot win. If you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, chuck some at it; just don't expect to get it back (if you do, bonus!) Honestly at this point you're probably better off just playing the fruit machine in your local pub. At least that way you're guaranteed to get at least 87% of your money back. No actual brick-and-mortar store will seriously accept any crypto because of the ludicrously huge delay on the transactions. Unfortunately, this is a problem which affects all cryptocurrencies because of the way they generate new tokens/coins/whatever. The transaction cannot be verified until it is mined into a block, and this happens once every 10-30 minutes. Oh yeah, and it might take longer than that if you didn't put any fees in with your transactions because most mining pools will prioritize transactions based on the fees attached to them (which is why it is so hilarious that people tout "no fees!!!!" as an upside to cryptocurrencies). Hashcoin is a pump-and-dump scam like all the others.
Garacesh Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Also does anybody else think it looks a bit suspicious that Skytower seems to have registered on here specifically to shill hashcoin? Definitely. It's almost as if Hashcoin shills are Googling it and signing up to places discussing it to promote it. I wonder what would have happened if this thread was BTRD? Or maybe I'm just being cynical. I'm currently sat on 10.5k (10,400-and-something to be precise) Dogecoin and I'm neither here-nor-there about continuing. I mined Monday and yesterday to breach the 10k mark and I succeeded on Monday. Yesterday I come home from work to find I've found 166 blocks, but gained zero Doge from it. Checked my wallet address was correct, it was, and there's no way that all those blocks were orphaned. Rather dubious, methinks, so I may just sit on what I have and cash out if it rises (just like everyone else mining Crypto's right now) I can't ever see crypto's replacing current 'real-world' currencies (Although, in all fairness, 'real-world' money is the same as cryptocurrency in the sense of 'they are tokens and worth only what people are willing to exchange them for', but there's much more of an agreed census on 'what people are willing to exchange them for' with pounds and pennies) - but I will admit the Cryptocurrency experiment was an interesting one. I'm sure someone, somewhere, will be able to come up with a more valuable use for the combined hashing power of thousands of isolated machines - it's just making it appealing that's the issue. I personally see mining crypto's akin to gambling. Do not invest any substantial amount of money in it. Any money you do invest (be that exchanging it into casino chips or simply using more electric than usual) consider it 'lost' from the get-go. You no longer have that money. It's gone. That way if you make a return on it, great! If you don't, happens, at least you didn't spend more than you were financially able to. Edited February 26, 2014 by Garacesh
CHR1S Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 I day traded BTC and LTC for a while, made a sizeable profit too. The last occasion I woke up the next morning to be several hundred in loss! If I can lose the best part of 1000 euro profit by sleeping then that currency will never replace fiat. Sold out for an overall loss of approx 300 euros once I saw the Gox farce brewing. I now trade on AIM, yes I realise thats like jumping from the frying pan into a very hot bath, but its slightly less risky!
Driftingashore Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Who is actually making those transactions though? Bitcoin addresses aren't linked to actual real people, which is why the protocol is a criminals wet dream. Money laundering has never been easier - now you can do it algorithmically! Get scammed? Too bad, no chargebacks! Someone break into your wallet? Oh that's too bad, now all your bitcoins are gone! Sounds a lot like cash to me. Presumably, just as we don't hide our savings under our pillows or actively carry them around with us, sensible people keep their BTC stash in secure offline wallets instead. I'm not saying that's the perfect solution, but there are much better options than leaving them on your PC and hoping nothing bad happens. Are you actually serious? Look at the rate of inflation for Bitcoin between January and December 2013 and then compare it to the rate of inflation for the pound in that time. They are vastly different. It's not really fair to compare what you'd call hyperinflation for real money with the inflation experienced by bitcoin, since bitcoin is orders of magnitude more unstable than any real currency. I hate to be that guy, but between January and December, Bitcoin showed hyperdeflation rather than hyperinflation, caused by high demand and restricted supply. With inflation the money you have loses value, and you can buy less with the same amount of currency over time. Bitcoin showed exactly the opposite of that. For what its worth, Bitcoin looks like it's starting to rise again after the Mt. Gox fiasco. It's in uncharted territory, so there are bound to be bumps in the road and obstacles to manoeuvre. It's nowhere near mature, but it's growing up fast.
Sdrawkcab Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Sounds a lot like cash to me. Presumably, just as we don't hide our savings under our pillows or actively carry them around with us, sensible people keep their BTC stash in secure offline wallets instead. I'm not saying that's the perfect solution, but there are much better options than leaving them on your PC and hoping nothing bad happens. But then spending them is nearly impossible. For a currency to work, you have to spend it. I hate to be that guy, but between January and December, Bitcoin showed hyperdeflation rather than hyperinflation, caused by high demand and restricted supply. With inflation the money you have loses value, and you can buy less with the same amount of currency over time. Bitcoin showed exactly the opposite of that. You are 100% correct, but if you think this is a good idea you clearly have no idea how money works. Having a deflationary, scarce, currency is an awful idea. Its the same reason we don't have gold coins anymore. For what its worth, Bitcoin looks like it's starting to rise again after the Mt. Gox fiasco. It's in uncharted territory, so there are bound to be bumps in the road and obstacles to manoeuvre. It's nowhere near mature, but it's growing up fast. Over 2 weeks, sure. Give it a year or two and I don't think you'll be saying that. Don't you think its odd that everyone only refers to the value of Cryptos by how much they are worth in real money? Nobody ever talks about what you can actually buy with them unless its drugs, and even then most Tor drugs marketplaces tied their prices to USD anyway. Edit: http://i.imgur.com/hxWA4VU.jpg Edited February 26, 2014 by Sdrawkcab
koryo Posted February 26, 2014 Author Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Definitely. It's almost as if Hashcoin shills are Googling it and signing up to places discussing it to promote it. I wonder what would have happened if this thread was BTRD? Or maybe I'm just being cynical. I thought about doing so, however i thought as the topic was sparked by a public page, and that there isn't really anything personal or private in it, that it would be more suited to General. my bad if I was wrong. However If someone does want to join in from Hashcoin themselves, then all the more for it, that would make for an interesting spin to the conversation! But then spending them is nearly impossible. For a currency to work, you have to spend it. Don't you think its odd that everyone only refers to the value of Cryptos by how much they are worth in real money? Nobody ever talks about what you can actually buy with them unless its drugs, and even then most Tor drugs marketplaces tied their prices to USD anyway. I find that an interesting concept - what would you compare a new type of currency to other than currencies that are currently being used? what would you use to show it's value? and how would you convince others that it's a good idea to use this new type of currency other than comparing it to another, other than trying to be as safe and reliable as possible? With regards to someone's "Wallet" being stolen, I feel that this is no different to real life. If you left your front door unlocked whilst you went out in the back garden for a few minutes, and someone walks into your home and steals it, you have lost the funds stored there with no real hope for it being returned, exactly the same with physical currency. I do agree that for the past little while, crypto currencies have been fairly unsteady, but is that not the same as purchasing shares in a company? or buying some other material with value? Also - for those reading still interested in the mtgox issue - their homepage has a new message posted today. Edited February 26, 2014 by koryo removing image
Driftingashore Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 But then spending them is nearly impossible. For a currency to work, you have to spend it. You are 100% correct, but if you think this is a good idea you clearly have no idea how money works. Having a deflationary, scarce, currency is an awful idea. Its the same reason we don't have gold coins anymore. Over 2 weeks, sure. Give it a year or two and I don't think you'll be saying that. Don't you think its odd that everyone only refers to the value of Cryptos by how much they are worth in real money? Nobody ever talks about what you can actually buy with them unless its drugs, and even then most Tor drugs marketplaces tied their prices to USD anyway. Personally, I don't find it odd at all, and that links into something you mentioned earlier about spending them being nearly impossible. Until a coin's user base is fully developed, there are obviously going to be issues about using the coins in the real world. We're talking very early years for crypto currency, and major stores aren't going to jump for something that's hardly going to be used. The coin has to make it into the hands of the masses and stabilise somewhat in value first, which will take a very long time in the case of Bitcoin. Anyway, if you don't have any foreign currency, you go buy some at an exchange. Cryptos are no different, and it seems obvious that you'd talk about their value in "real" money when you're exchanging real money to buy into them. The scarcity of the coin isn't really much of an issue seeing as they can be split to eight decimal places. The value of 1BTC is currently in the hundreds, but you can still send payments of pennies. The current minimum cap is something like 0.00005000 and was put in place to help prevent millions of microtransactions from bogging down the network. It's worth just under two pence at current values, and if it was needed and the value of BTC was to rise again significantly, that limit could be removed. Frankly, we have no idea exactly how the deflationary aspect of BTC would affect its value in the long term, as currently its price is so unstable and hasn't found its base value by a long shot. If the rates of deflation were low it may not affect value enough to make hoarding worthwhile, and if it ever became a real problem, the devs could have more be mined. The current price variance isn't much to do with the coin's ultimate deflationary nature (as if its price were stable it should be inflationary right now - more coins are being mined daily) but market forces.
Roberto Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 So-called "digital currency" is at best a bubble and at worst a scam. Somehow your financial future is more secure if you entrust it to some guy who says his digital magic beans are somehow more valuable than everyone else's magic beans. If you're lucky and get in at the right level you might strike it lucky. You know, if you bet on the right brand of snake-oil. I mean there are people out there who 'made' money on bitcoins and managed to turn it back into real money during a high, right? On the other hand, it reminds me greatly of the old saying: "if you can't tell who the sucker at the card table is..." Yeah, I'll get right on that.
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