The Big Benefits Row

[abillybob]

Please read my previous post! I have been a bit out of order at some points and don't think like I have portrayed at all, it's when topics like this it gets my back up as I experience it first hand with my girlfriends parents I don't think that everyone with a disability should go to work can I please just clarify this!

There's a difference between having a bad back, and having a back condition that prevents you from walking, sitting etc. There can be issues like being in too much pain or neurological conditions like narcolepsy (not recognised as a work preventing issue) that WILL prevent you from working or holding down a full time job.

 

What is society if it does not help those in need to live? If you do not provide a safety net for people that cannot go to work, you'll simply having people dying on the streets (which you do, but lets ignore them because they are beggars and scroungers). Lets ignore the people driven to suicide due to cuts in benefits.

 

Someone I know was forced to go 25miles to a "free" work placement to get his benefits. They refused to allow him to work for a charity in his town. Can you run a car to do 50 miles a day on benefits as well as food, heating and living? No. He refused as he would be out of pocket and is now removed from the government statistics on the unemployed. He now does cash in hand jobs to survive.

 

It may happen to you and if it does you'll be pissed off the amount of ignorant ***** that think anyone that isn't a quadropedic isnt fit for work and is scrounging off the measly amount you pay in tax. Our money isn't just here to go to war, pay serco for private prisons and prop up banks.

[GeekyPete]

Yep and people will always have their own opinions so this debate will go on forever and it's a sensitive subject for the media to twist! This is what causes these problems in the first place! For me it's just about prioritising what's most important and when it's my money given to these people I damn well like to know what's going on with it and at the end of the day if they choose to spend more on fags, booze and the latest gadgets then they do food and essentials that is my personal morels stepping in and saying it is wrong. So please don't take what I have said in the post literally the subject winds me up and like most of the public your defence mechanism gets higher and higher. I'm a nice person honestly

 

I really hope that you don't end up as "one of these people". Many people find themselves on disability after working for decades. And if you do you, that will "Damn well" show me your finances or lack there of so I can apply my own personal morals to how you choose to spend what little you have...

[abillybob]

If I ever have to go on benefits for some reason! I will make sure I myself prioritise what I spend the money on food, gas, electric etc... shouldn't everyone? As long as I could get by that's what I'd spend my money on! This comment makes no sense and you personally couldn't choose what I spent my money on but the government can as far as I'm concerned it's their money not mine.

I really hope that you don't end up as "one of these people". Many people find themselves on disability after working for decades. And if you do you, that will "Damn well" show me your finances or lack there of so I can apply my own personal morals to how you choose to spend what little you have...

[Edu-IT]

My thoughts exactly. I'm staying out of this one as much as possible. It's degraded again into petty jealousies, finger pointing and anecdotal evidence, into which this debate will always fall, until, we, as a society evolve a way of living in the Technological Age/Revolution/Era, call it what you will. A way of living and thinking that starts with understanding that never, ever again will there be enough work for everyone to have a full-time job, that some people will never, ever work in their whole lifetime and ends with dealing with the consequences of those simple, unavoidable facts.

 

I don't care that so-and-so down the road hasn't worked a day in his life but has a bigger TV than me, faster broadband or more-Designer label shoes than I have, even though I've worked all my life. That is their choice, this is mine.

 

I care more about the non-collection of tax from rich businessmen, multi-nationals and the tax loopholes and ridiculous Company Law system that allow these people and corporations to operate in this manner. Loopholes which the government we, as a society, elected but which they don't seem able or willing, to close.

 

If my taxes weren't funding the welfare system, they'd be funding something else. Don't be fooled for one moment, any of you, that cutting the Benefit Bill, catching a few cheats, will reduce your taxes or lead to a better lifestyle for yourself and your loved ones......it won't.

 

It's just an easy way to Divide and Rule. Which the majority of you have fallen for.

I'm far from jealous, just so you know.

[SpuffMonkey]

The argument about the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor is such a waste of time - the question is what do you want to do about people who have not (for any reason) got a job - are you going to provide some sort of welfare so they don't starve on the street or are you happy to let that happen?

 

If the latter, then there's nothing further to be discussed.

 

If the former, you can start to think about how much.

 

Sanctioning people because you don't like their attitude or choices is pointless whenever there are fewer jobs than the number of unemployed, in fact the lazy or feckless person is providing a service by not competing for the small number of jobs that there actually are.

 

Really there is no logical reason to be annoyed or upset with them until there are unfilled vacancies and all the other people have got jobs - that's when you would be justified in having a crackdown on people who are not working.

[featured_spectre]

Someone was complaining about foreigners coming in and stealing jobs from british people which is why he couldnt get a job. My reaction was this...and this actually got me thrown out of the job centre when I said this...

 

If a person comes here with a limited grasp of the English language, with no contacts to out them into a job and a willingness to do whatever job pays a wage...maybe, just maybe, you are a lazy **** (redacted because I used a 4 letter swear beginning with S).

[free780]

I know I'll get shot down for this. Where are the fathers and husband s that should be providing for the mums and children. Im not against benefits. I'm against men not working when they have responsibilities.

[LosOjos]

I know I'll get shot down for this. Where are the fathers and husband s that should be providing for the mums and children. Im not against benefits. I'm against men not working when they have responsibilities.

 

It genuinely worries me that some people have such a black and white view of the world... which fathers are we talking about here? The ones who were happily working away earning a living until budget cuts saw them laid off and those same cuts have meant they've struggled to find work since, scraping together what they can each day and trying to get their family through on the meager benefits they are given [compared to full time work], no doubt stressed to the hilt and feeling guilty, like they're failing their families and struggling to see a way out, all because someone high up in government [whose job and salary are just fine thankyouverymuch] decided to slash budgets putting him out of a job in the first place?

 

No, I guessed you didn't mean those fathers.

 

Come on people, things aren't that simple; they rarely are!

[newpersn]

I worked 2 jobs to support my family when we hit rock bottom.

[featured_spectre]

During my years I was working during the day in a shop from 8am - 3pm, then an evening job as a cleaner in an office block between 5pm - 7pm, and then a night shift at McDonalds between 8pm and midnight, just to bring in a wage that paid the bills

[tmcd35]

I worked 2 jobs to support my family when we hit rock bottom.

 

You where very lucky to get two jobs when you hit rock bottom as @nephilim's recent job hunting experiences prove.

 

There will always be people out of work - for whatever reason, most through no fault of their own. As a soicety I believe we have a duty of care to help and support these people - workhouses, slums and homelessness should not be considered options in this day and age. Whatever system you dream up so support those in most need, a minority will find a way to abuse that system for their own gain.

 

Once you accept that the question becomes more about the best ways of allocating the funds available. (And by that I mean amounts allocated to JSA, disability, child benefit, etc - not whether or not vouchers are a good idea). And the fairest way to test eligability. (should child benefit be universal - even for multi millionaires?)

 

There are more injustices in the current system than benefits cheats. The top end tax rate reduced from 50p to 45p? The bedroom tax?

 

If you think someone is a benefit cheat - report them!

[GREED]

I caught the repeat last night. Very very poorly edited into 30 minutes it almost made no sense.

 

That Katie woman on there... cracked me up. Was she high? I don't disagree with the general points she was making but coming across so aggressive just made here look a complete tit!

[free780]

I meant the guy on benefits street who quit after a day. Surely he can get some factory work. That's what I had to do at first, then admin/office then IT.

[abillybob]

This debate will go on forever let's all agree to disagree

[tmcd35]

I meant the guy on benefits street who quit after a day. Surely he can get some factory work.

 

This'll set the cat amongst the pigeons...

 

Having done factory work. Experienced the working conditions and pay - I'd sooner stay on the dole and wait for something more suitable to come along, personally.

 

True story - I signed up to Uni becuase I couldn't stomach doing any more factory work (lasted barely 2 weeks) and there where no other job opportunities available.

[jbailey]

Its always interesting to read these social commentary threads on Edugeek, reminds me of the "big question" on tv

 

But I'm not sure there's any benefits debate to be had, is the leakage in money enough to be of a concern any more than it is already addressed - I don't think so imho.

 

I believe in the value of the welfare state as a social safety net, I think its needed but I think its always going to be open to abuse by people who are thankfully small in number. Some of whom genuinely do need help with education and other issues not always addressed by social services.

 

It was good to see the young family in benefits street having "family\parent classes" - much more of this type of service is needed I feel, I meet a lot of people - as does my partner who works in social services - who don't appear to have had much nurturing or guidance as children - its a vicious circle that creates poorly life skilled adults who often rely on benefits I think.

 

I also know from experience that a lot of people who project the image of your stereotype "why should I work when I can sit at home and get paid" scrounger are often people who have hidden educational or emotional issues to be dealt with and our current social services system is poorly funded\equipped to recognise let alone tackle that as its busy dealing with the "very" broken people let alone the "moderately" broken... Its tempting to dismiss these people as scroungers and scum - I'm sure some of them are scroungers, but I think a real reduction in the already small amount of people abusing the system could be made by simply helping them instead of demonising them.

 

I think the idea of vouchers for a percentage of a benefit payment is a very good idea and should be trialled, If I was in a position to need benefits I would be okay with that.

 

Yes, dealing with peoples issues and needs is all very expensive, but to be honest I don't really believe that any social services are in reality "under threat", its a choice of what the government pays for and who's needs they server and I think history and a brain hints that this usually isn't the business of the people they govern.

 

So, generally I think the issues around benefits are a handy distraction for hard working types and good for providing someone else to blame - often people that are damaged and uneducated who cannot always defend themselves, and I think people would benefit more - pun - from looking up the tree than looking down it to see why more cannot be done in the context of benefits and social services to improve things for people struggling in this country.

 

I'm not actually as liberal as I sound btw!

 

Hope this helps,

 

my 2 cents

[abillybob]

On another note North Korea.....

[tmcd35]

On another note North Korea.....

 

Fascinating Panorama the other night on educating their university students. Worth finding on iPlayer if you've not seen it.

[abillybob]

Watched it last night, I felt sorry for the kids! Do you ever think North Korea will change? I hear Anonymous hacked into their intranet and vandalised the government web pages with pictures of Kim as a pig!! Haha!!

Fascinating Panorama the other night on educating their university students. Worth finding on iPlayer if you've not seen it.

[HallX]

I hear Anonymous hacked into their intranet and vandalised the government web pages with pictures of Kim as a pig!! Haha!!

 

If that's true, I suspect someone would probably be shot for that.

[witch]

thanks @jbailey

That's exactly how I feel about benefits - but I would add the appalling injustices meted out by ATOS and the dreadful bedroom tax needs sorting out as well.

[abillybob]

Youtube it and look at the CNN new report, YouTube: North Korea anonymous!

If that's true, I suspect someone would probably be shot for that.

[Earthling]

Trying hard to keep out of this one, but not much happening at work so far, so.......

 

Doesn't anyone think that creating a voucher system will just create another 'Black Market' opportunity for the unscrupulous and opportunistic? Or is it just me being unscrupulous and opportunistic?

 

Although I suppose we could take DNA samples from the voucher recipients and bio-metric the vouchers in some way. Shouldn't add more than a billion or two to the voucher system budget and of course, that billion or two (of our money) would go to private companies and some of it would probably wend it's way via several brown envelopes and the odd off-shore bank account to someone (or ones) not a million miles from Westminster.

 

And, of course, the benefit recipients DNA could go on the National Database for ever more, 'just in case'.

 

Win/win/win all round. For the unscrupulous, the opportunistic and the government. Oops, sorry.........same thing really, aren't they.

[Garacesh]

Trying hard to keep out of this one, but not much happening at work so far, so.......

 

Doesn't anyone think that creating a voucher system will just create another 'Black Market' opportunity for the unscrupulous and opportunistic? Or is it just me being unscrupulous and opportunistic?

 

Although I suppose we could take DNA samples from the voucher recipients and bio-metric the vouchers in some way. Shouldn't add more than a billion or two to the voucher system budget and of course, that billion or two (of our money) would go to private companies and some of it would probably wend it's way via several brown envelopes and the odd off-shore bank account to someone (or ones) not a million miles from Westminster.

 

And, of course, the benefit recipients DNA could go on the National Database for ever more, 'just in case'.

 

Win/win/win all round. For the unscrupulous, the opportunistic and the government. Oops, sorry.........same thing really, aren't they.

 

Biometrics would certainly be over-stepping I'd say, however I don't think photographic ID would, as it really doesn't cost that much to make. Yes it can be forged, but there's never going to be a foolproof system.

[abillybob]

True. Anything is possible, I suppose at the end of it all they will always find a way around it. Though it would be a lot more work to have to go to black markets, not get caught, etc... Each voucher could have a unique identifier the same as money so you can't copy them and the persons name would be printed on the voucher so you would need valid ID to spend it???

Trying hard to keep out of this one, but not much happening at work so far, so.......

 

Doesn't anyone think that creating a voucher system will just create another 'Black Market' opportunity for the unscrupulous and opportunistic? Or is it just me being unscrupulous and opportunistic?

 

Although I suppose we could take DNA samples from the voucher recipients and bio-metric the vouchers in some way. Shouldn't add more than a billion or two to the voucher system budget and of course, that billion or two (of our money) would go to private companies and some of it would probably wend it's way via several brown envelopes and the odd off-shore bank account to someone (or ones) not a million miles from Westminster.

 

And, of course, the benefit recipients DNA could go on the National Database for ever more, 'just in case'.

 

Win/win/win all round. For the unscrupulous, the opportunistic and the government. Oops, sorry.........same thing really, aren't they.