The Big Benefits Row

[LosOjos]

Explain why Steven Hawking can go on and do great things and work all his life but these other people can't, even when your severely disabled if he can do it so can MOST people, it's whether or not you choose to!

 

That is an utterly ridiculous statement. Stephen Hawking is a genius, not your average Joe Bloggs. He was extremely successful even before he became seriously ill.

 

A better (albeit potentially very sad) question would be, would he have been given the opportunities to get where he is today if he had fallen ill before his genius was realised? I suspect not.

[gmj]

6 pages in and no one as of yet has mentioned Nazis. I am disappoint.

[abillybob]

No what you just said is a ridiculous statement! Why wouldn't he of done aswell just because he's disabled I could name 100's of people names who are disabled at birth and achieved amazing things in their life, it's not luck, that isn't the way disabled people get far it's about them pushing themselves to prove to other people they can do well and eventually turn successful! If Stephen Hawkin was born with this disease and still followed the same path he did, he would have got just as far as he did now. Everybody has equal opportunities whether your disabled, white or black it doesn't matter nothing will stop those determined people getting where they want to be as I say it's those people who are on benefits with the can't be arsed attitude that I dislike.

That is an utterly ridiculous statement. Stephen Hawking is a genius, not your average Joe Bloggs. He was extremely successful even before he became seriously ill.

 

A better (albeit potentially very sad) question would be, would he have been given the opportunities to get where he is today if he had fallen ill before his genius was realised? I suspect not.

 

Edit: And one more thing in Stephens career he was well and then discovered he had the problems he does at 20 but now he's still at work a prime example of somebody that has been well got extremely poorly and still carried on and pursued a career thus proving not many people have a leg to stand on when they say I have a back problem and now can't go to work so I'm going to stay on benefits.

Edited February 4, 2014 by abillybob

[LosOjos]

No what you just said is a ridiculous statement! Why wouldn't he of done aswell just because he's disabled I could name 100's of people names who are disabled at birth and achieved amazing things in their life, it's not luck, that isn't the way disabled people get far it's about them pushing themselves to prove to other people they can do well and eventually turn successful! If Stephen Hawkin was born with this disease and still followed the same path he did, he would have got just as far as he did now. Everybody has equal opportunities whether your disabled, white or black it doesn't matter nothing will stop those determined people getting where they want to be as I say it's those people who are on benefits with the can't be arsed attitude that I dislike.

 

How would he have done that, exactly, without complex and expensive machinery to enable him to communicate with the world? Because he sure as hell wouldn't have gotten that on benefits...

 

This idea that everyone is equal is a farce. I totally agree that you will get much further in life if you try hard but that doesn't mean everyone can do everything.

 

Everyone should be treated equally, that's true. But we aren't all capable of becoming world class athletes and scholars.

Edited February 4, 2014 by LosOjos

[glen_j]

6 pages in and no one as of yet has mentioned Nazis. I am disappoint.

 

i don't think the Nazi's are claiming benefits

[abillybob]

Ugh I give up.

How would he have done that, exactly, without complex and expensive machinery to enable him to communicate with the world? Because he sure as hell wouldn't have gotten that on benefits...

 

This idea that everyone is equal is a farce. I totally agree that you will get much further in life if you try hard but that doesn't mean everyone can do everything.

 

Everyone should be treated equally, that's true. But we aren't all capable of becoming world class athletes and scholars.

[LosOjos]

@alexbillbridgnorth - you cannot seriously believe that because Stephen Hawking didn't choose to stop pursuing his career as a world leading theoretical physicist when he found out that he had a motor neurone disease that every single person of every type of background and all kinds of disabilities should be put out to work, can you?

[abillybob]

Ok how about John let's use him as an example if that's more to your liking rather than the EXAMPLE I was using with Stephen Hawking as everyone knows him. John is a person in Bridgnorth who works for Mark & Spencers every day almost he's much loved by the community and is disabled, bound to a wheelchair and has neurological problems that won't allow him to think properly if he's capable of getting up for work then why can't your average Joe who's got a bad back. It's interesting you say from every background because this is true I find people are less likely to work and pursue a career if their parents didn't! As I say doesn't matter if you're disabled, black or white you have the same opportunities as the next person its whether or not you can be bothered to get a job! Edited February 4, 2014 by abillybob

[gmj]

i don't think the Nazi's are claiming benefits

 

Guess not...they take them by force

[Earthling]

Oh, get out of it @Earthling. A 'deal with it' response would have been acceptable had I said 'That's insulting, that means you're not allowed to say it', but I didn't, did I? In fact, I even mentioned that you raised a valid point at one stage. What I did, was explain maturely why it was insulting, because you're making an assumption on my character that's entirely inaccurate (the character of the others, too, but I can't speak on their behalf).

 

With a response like that, you're now just being petty and childish rather than adding to the discussion.

 

 

 

You have the right to say something that's insulting. I have the right to respond to it. Neither one of our rights takes away the others'. "Deal with it" is selfish justification for self-centred behaviour.

 

I don't consider it to have been insulting. I stand by what I said, that most of the reactions and posts have been of the 'How does he/she get a 50/60/70 inch TV, the full Sky Package and trainers on benefits while I work hard and can't have any of those things'.

 

Petty jealousies.

 

I've dealt with mine.............

[Garacesh]

You can consider your post whatever you like, I'm still allowed to consider it insulting and retort as I saw fit. None of this validates a 'deal with it' response.

 

I may have pointed out that I've seen people on the dole with the $LatestItem, but never in a jealous sense (for a start, I don't like iPhone's, wear trainers, or watch TV!), merely as an example of how the funds are being misused. Does pointing out a valid example make me jealous, now?

[tmcd35]

Ok how about John let's use him as an example if that's more to your liking rather than the EXAMPLE I was using with Stephen Hawking as everyone knows him. John is a person in Bridgnorth who works for Mark & Spencers every day almost he's much loved by the community and is disabled, bound to a wheelchair and has neurological problems that won't allow him to think properly if he's capable of getting up for work then why can't your average Joe who's got a bad back. It's interesting you say from every background because this is true I find people are less likely to work and pursue a career if their parents didn't! As I say doesn't matter if you're disabled, black or white you have the same opportunities as the next person its whether or not you can be bothered to get a job!

 

You are right! but it doesn't answer two important questions - where are the jobs? and should we punish those who better manage their finances for the crimes of those who don't?

 

It's nothing to do with gender, disability, race, or anything else. It's not even a benefits problem per se.

 

There's not enough jobs to go around - and you shouldn't punish those who want to work but can't becuase of those who could work but won't.

Edited February 4, 2014 by tmcd35

[LosOjos]

Ok how about John let's use him as an example if that's more to your liking rather than the EXAMPLE I was using with Stephen Hawking as everyone knows him. John is a person in Bridgnorth who works for Mark & Spencers every day almost he's much loved by the community and is disabled, bound to a wheelchair and has neurological problems that won't allow him to think properly if he's capable of getting up for work then why can't your average Joe who's got a bad back. It's interesting you say from every background because this is true I find people are less likely to work and pursue a career if their parents didn't! As I say doesn't matter if you're disabled, black or white you have the same opportunities as the next person!

 

OK, I accept that Stephen Hawking was just an example but it was a really bad example.

 

Like I have said, there are people who game the system there's no denying that but do your research (and I don't mean in the tabloids) - official figures estimate just 1% of the total benefits budget is lost to fraud. One percent. What irritates me whenever this conversation comes up is that far too many people tar all benefit claimants with the "scrounger" brush when those that are defrauding the system make up a tiny minority of claimants.

 

My point is, you cannot punish the 99% of honest benefits claimants just because 1% are taking advantage. To be honest, I think 1% is pretty good!

 

There are much bigger problems in this country but benefit fraud is an easy scape goat that can be wheeled out to give the masses a common enemy while they ignore the bigger picture. The government must have thought Christmas had come early when "Benefits Street" hit the screen.

Edited February 4, 2014 by LosOjos

[GeekyPete]

I am staggered at how many supposedly intelligent people have swallowed Government hype designed to socially engineer support to take money from the vulnerable in society. I am fed up with the "I know this bloke right... He drive a roller and he's on the dole". It's hear say and supposition. Say what you like, there are many vulnerable people , you pass in the street every day who are not smoking, drinking, watching sky sports who are truely suffering under these measures.

 

The ATOS Tests are a disgrace. If you can walk across a room you can work. Who would hire someone who can't walk from the bus stop? And if they walk across a room have to sit down for 20 minutes puffing and panting... Walking 20 paces is quite different to a days work.

 

Society is judged by how it treats the vulnerable, I have seen the other side of a lot of people here and it saddens me greatly. Not only by their lack of compassion but even more so that they are prepared villify the vulnerable without getting themselves properly informed. Volunteer at food bank for a couple of months, meet a spectrum of the people you are talking about. Then post again and give me some quantitive evidence that the level of cuts is justified and there are adequate safeguards in place and I add rep to every post you've ever made.

[abillybob]

No I totally agree with you here. But while on benefits it should be moderated on what things these people are buying with them they should only need the essentials and if they have money left over then they are getting too much. My mum who also works for a school as a business manager had a job going for a caretaker and found that only 1 person applied, in a economy where there aren't much jobs it seems there aren't much people willing to hunt for the jobs either.

You are right! but it doesn't amswer two important questions - where are the jobs? and should we punish those who better manage their finances for the crimes of those who don't?

 

It's nothing to do with gender, disability, race, or anything else. It's not even a benefits problem per se.

 

There's not enough jobs to go around - and you shouldn't punish those who want to work but can't becuase of those who could work but won't.

[ButterflyMoon]

@AlexBillbridgenorth I find your attitude a little bit scary to be honest. The mere fact you used the Stephen Hawking example shows that you think ALL disabled people can work no matter what is wrong with them. With the best will in the world Mr Hawking probably has had better finance and care in his life which ENABLED him to continue. Can your ordinary poor bugger in a chair say the same? There is such a thing as differentiation what one person can cope with someone else may well not. I totally agree with you regarding 'them that CHOOSE not to work' but unless there are changes to the whole welfare system these people will continue to milk it for all it's worth.

[GeekyPete]

The "Nazi" comments, I guess are talking about Eugenics. Worth looking up. If it wasn't for the fact that Hitler demonstrated the ulimate horror of Eugenics I think it would be common practice today. You have to consider that both Roosavelt and Churchill were once supporters of it. People would have just swallowed what the government of the day put out in an attempt to socially engineer a consensus and we'd have grown up with the idea and accepted it as normal, well most of us would....

[abillybob]

But even then if you do research theres no actual real world evidence. Like I said my girlfriends mother is playing the system by saying she is depressed. Just because someone states they have a problem and get the doctor to agree with something that isn't true doesn't mean they are not cheating the system. Under the governments and statistics eyes my girlfriends mum isn't doing any kind of Benefit fraud as it has all been confirmed by the doctor but the actual truth is she is. I know far too often of people that do this especially where I come from, even to the extent of having more kids just so they can get more benefit money in a sense that's cheating the system. I somehow don't believe only 1% of benefit frauds out there and we will never find the true answer because if you're a good fraud you'll never get found out and actually look genuine!

OK, I accept that Stephen Hawking was just an example but it was a really bad example.

 

Like I have said, there are people who game the system there's no denying that but do your research (and I don't mean in the tabloids) - official figures estimate just 1% of the total benefits budget is lost to fraud. One percent. What irritates me whenever this conversation comes up is that far too many people tar all benefit claimants with the "scrounger" brush when those that are defrauding the system make up a tiny minority of claimants.

 

My point is, you cannot punish the 99% of honest benefits claimants just because 1% are taking advantage. To be honest, I think 1% is pretty good!

 

There are much bigger problems in this country but benefit fraud is an easy scape goat that can be wheeled out to give the masses a common enemy while they ignore the bigger picture. The government must have thought Christmas had come early when "Benefits Street" hit the screen.

[abillybob]

No they can't and I understand that some people can't but also some can and are more than capable and by them saying I have a bad back should not be excuse to be able to go on benefits.

@AlexBillbridgenorth I find your attitude a little bit scary to be honest. The mere fact you used the Stephen Hawking example shows that you think ALL disabled people can work no matter what is wrong with them. With the best will in the world Mr Hawking probably has had better finance and care in his life which ENABLED him to continue. Can your ordinary poor bugger in a chair say the same? There is such a thing as differentiation what one person can cope with someone else may well not. I totally agree with you regarding 'them that CHOOSE not to work' but unless there are changes to the whole welfare system these people will continue to milk it for all it's worth.

[HallX]

- official figures estimate just 1% of the total benefits budget is lost to fraud.

 

From Official gov.uk site:

 

This National Statistics report has been published according to the arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority.

 

The report estimates fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain:

 

for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 2.1% of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2011 to 2012 estimate

the estimated value of overpayments is £3.5 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £3.4 billion

for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 0.9% of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimate (0.8%)

the estimated value of underpayments is £1.6 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £1.3 billion

The report includes Employment and Support Allowance official error estimates.

 

These statistics have recently been assessed by the UK Statistics Authority.

 

If you have any comments, questions or any general queries regarding our publication, please email the Fraud and Error Measurement Analysis Team

 

Next release: May 2014.

[LosOjos]

I honestly believe that most people in this country want to work for a living. There are those that don't and will find ways and means of not doing so but they are the minority and should be treated as such. My major issue with this whole debate is how exaggerated a problem it is.

 

Here's an interesting article from Citizen's Advice Scotland (remember when they were state funded? my mistake, they still receive some funding just not as much as they once did): Myth-busting: the real figures on benefit fraud | Citizens Advice Scotland

 

@HallX - yes, 2.1% for fraud and error i.e. overpayments due to mistakes in the application or administrative errors, all/most of which is recovered. Have a look at that article I just posted for more details.

Edited February 4, 2014 by LosOjos

[ButterflyMoon]

I think maybe I didn't word my post very well. I think what am trying to say is this @AlexBillbridgenorth what makes you qualified to actually KNOW how bad someone back is or why they are on benefits. Have you got a medical background or do you work on the side for Atos. It is just your posts come over very judgemental I am sorry if I have misread them if this is not the case. Yes agreed there are shysters that buck the system but very many people have health issues that stop them from working for whatever reason.

[abillybob]

Yep and people will always have their own opinions so this debate will go on forever and it's a sensitive subject for the media to twist! This is what causes these problems in the first place! For me it's just about prioritising what's most important and when it's my money given to these people I damn well like to know what's going on with it and at the end of the day if they choose to spend more on fags, booze and the latest gadgets then they do food and essentials that is my personal morels stepping in and saying it is wrong. So please don't take what I have said in the post literally the subject winds me up and like most of the public your defence mechanism gets higher and higher. I'm a nice person honestly

[Theblacksheep]

No they can't and I understand that some people can't but also some can and are more than capable and by them saying I have a bad back should not be excuse to be able to go on benefits.

 

There's a difference between having a bad back, and having a back condition that prevents you from walking, sitting etc. There can be issues like being in too much pain or neurological conditions like narcolepsy (not recognised as a work preventing issue) that WILL prevent you from working or holding down a full time job.

 

What is society if it does not help those in need to live? If you do not provide a safety net for people that cannot go to work, you'll simply having people dying on the streets (which you do, but lets ignore them because they are beggars and scroungers). Lets ignore the people driven to suicide due to cuts in benefits.

 

Someone I know was forced to go 25miles to a "free" work placement to get his benefits. They refused to allow him to work for a charity in his town. Can you run a car to do 50 miles a day on benefits as well as rent, food, heating and living? No. He refused as he would be out of pocket and is now removed from the government statistics on the unemployed. He now does cash in hand jobs to survive.

 

You're living in government/dailymail fairy land if you think being on benefits is some kind of fag smoking, beer drinking luxury.

 

It may happen to you and if it does you'll be pissed off the amount of ignorant ***** that think anyone that isn't a quadropedic isnt fit for work and is scrounging off the measly amount you pay in tax.

 

 

Our money isn't just here to go to war, pay serco for private prisons and prop up banks. We pay tax for a reason, the entire social system is being destroyed without reducing the tax collected reduced to compensate to pay for war debts. We are being manipulated, well some of us are.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Theblacksheep

[GeekyPete]

From Official gov.uk site:

 

This National Statistics report has been published according to the arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority.

 

The report estimates fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain:

 

for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 2.1% of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2011 to 2012 estimate

the estimated value of overpayments is £3.5 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £3.4 billion

for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 0.9% of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimate (0.8%)

the estimated value of underpayments is £1.6 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £1.3 billion

The report includes Employment and Support Allowance official error estimates.

 

These statistics have recently been assessed by the UK Statistics Authority.

 

If you have any comments, questions or any general queries regarding our publication, please email the Fraud and Error Measurement Analysis Team

 

Next release: May 2014.

 

Thank you for this... Now can some one explain to me why the co-Attrition Government are not cutting the budget by 2.1%

 

Budget for 2013 £159Bn, that's with £7Bn already cut and a further £10bn on the way. That's over 10%, some benefits like Housing benefit are being cut by 14%.

 

Stop being manipulated, get informed This is not about cutting fraud! You are being manipulated so there is a ground swell of opinion. They need a consenus and now you are doing Cameron's job for him!