The Big Benefits Row

[hawc]

Just turned the TV off, before I go down to channel 5 and knock Katie Hopkins'es lights out.

I think that benefits are there for a reason. All they need is tighter control, however I have heard a lot about ATOS and think they need calming down.

[newpersn]

Just turned the TV off, before I go down to channel 5 and knock Katie Hopkins'es lights out.

I think that benefits are there for a reason. All they need is tighter control, however I have heard a lot about ATOS and think they need calming down.

 

Can me and mrs come?

[rich_tech]

I cant understand why she gets given the light of day, especially since she is trying to be a British "Anne Coulter" these days and saying stuff just puerly for the controversy and airtime.

 

That being said I thought that "debate" was pretty farcical overall, it started off ok but soon got fairly abusive with the way that Matthew Wright failed to control the debate reasonably I felt, when people started shouting over one another it descended into a bit of a joke I felt.

 

Stuff like this does not help the debate in any way I thought overall.

Edited February 4, 2014 by rich_tech

[abillybob]

We need benefits in the UK but there is a lot I disagree with. I believe if your sick but able to work for short periods of time then you should, not just sit there smoke and drink while the state pays for it. The problem with a lot of people on benefits (not all) is their priority's seem to all be wrong in how they spend their money. My girlfriends parents are on benefits "because they are sick" but they spend around £70 a week on tobacco, spend it on loads of alcohol, they have a huge 60" TV with surround sound in their living room, 6 Cats to feed, 1 Dog, 3 Kids and all they do is sit there everyday put the TV on and not move a muscle the house is such a mess. I'm amazed how they can live in it, holes in the doors Cr*p lying all over the floor, hardly ever have enough food to feed their kids properly. Dirty cups and plates lying their for months, so how is it my house is clean but for 9 hours a day I also go to work. It's a prime example the ginger woman and the strange man who lived together with their child on benefits street, there he was walking down to the food bank but he had enough money to buy a designer T-Shirt, Designer Jeans, A new Bike..... It's all about priorities. Instead of the government giving these waste of space people just cash they should give them vouchers to spend so £70 week at supermarkets, £10 week home improvement. Therefore none of the money can be wasted on drugs and alcohol!

[smurphy]

I agree with you. What really annoys me was when me and my girlfriend lived together we weren't getting by due to her not finding a job even though she was looking everywhere for one and we had the basics of living to get by, when we asked for any benefits the government says no I should pay for everything even though we couldn't afford anything but if I went on the jobseekers then they would pay out happily. Why people get punished for working hard I will never know, but that is why we need tighter control on the system.

[abillybob]

My mum's friend who has worked all her life has become very sick she has MS, it's a neurological condition which is causing her other issues also. Sometimes she can't even wash herself and she used to be such an independent happy woman. She asked for disability allowance and was told she had to wait 6 months before they'd even consider her case as she was working before. Then 6 months passed she went back up but because the doctors have said it is MS but they can't be 100% sure so they aren't officially diagnosing the problem thus resulting in her not being able to claim. It has been 2 years now she has a daughter, mortgage, son and a husband. The husband works but only earns around 17k a year and that's all that is the income. That's what Pi$$e$ me off is that you have people like that white dee sitting there doing nothing who lets all be honest can walk around and shout her mouth off but doesn't go to work and lives off the state, but a honest hard working person such as my mum's friend can't get any money. It's disgusting and I'm sick of the lot of them!

[temporaryuser]

Temporary account as I know some colleagues use this site.

 

I think benefits should not be allowed to be spent on alcohol or cigarettes. You should only be able to get a basic TV package /(Freeview, whatever) not Sky, Virgin etc. I think a basic internet connection is extremely valuable as well. You basically should get the basics for most benefits. Some benefits (for example long term illness or disability) would be entitled to more.

 

It annoys the hell out of me when through my job I see people I know to be on benefits smoking. It makes me think basically I am paying through my taxes for you to smoke which incidentally is also going to cost me more for the nearly inevitable medical conditions due to your smoking. You can also buy booze and get drunk causing trouble (police cost) and more medical issues (NHS cost).

 

Grrr:mad:

[featured_spectre]

Having been on disability allowance and then bumped to employment support allowance, I can tell you the system is flawed.

 

I was on disability because the Dr did not want me working, he still doesn't too this day, but wont go over me because I feel confident and fit enough to work. I was bumped off disability at my own choice and moved to employment support allowance and here is where the problem lies. Moving from one benefit to the other should be seemless, but it isn't. I spent a month waiting to get the ESA and had to go through various medicals to ensure I could get it.

 

Because I can work, they determined I should not get it at all, despite specialists and GPs telling them otherwise. ATOS themselves are a joke, at the time I went to see them, I was heavily reliant on a walking stick, taking over 30 pills a day, just to keep my symptoms at bay. They said because I can walk unaided for 5 metres, can answer a phone, I have (and I quote) "A full capacity to work". I have since learnt some exercises to help with my dizziness and I am nowhere near as reliant on the walking stick, but ATOS are a farce.

 

The benefits should be altered, to cover major expenses only (IE rent, gas, electric, food) and it should be paid directly to the creditors each month (with the exception of the food which should be done by food stamps / vouchers, with an ID required to redeem).

[SpuffMonkey]

What a load of censorious killjoys you lot are! If you could work up as much bile about the overpaid and the tax dodgers, I'd concede you have a point.

[X-13]

which incidentally is also going to cost me more for the nearly inevitable medical conditions due to your smoking.

 

Try again.

 

Factcheck: Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury? | Full Fact

 

About 85% of the cost of cigarettes is tax. Which goes straight back to the government. [And more than covers the NHS' smoking related illness costs.]

 

Also, it costs the NHS more over time if you're healthy.

 

Alcohol, Obesity and Smoking Do Not Cost Health Care Systems Money - Forbes

 

 

tax dodgers

 

Tax avoidance is legal. [if you're referring to people using clever accounting to pay less tax.]

 

Why pay more than you have to?

Edited February 4, 2014 by X-13

[featured_spectre]

What a load of censorious killjoys you lot are! If you could work up as much bile about the overpaid and the tax dodgers, I'd concede you have a point.

 

I have done so, I despise the tax dodgers as much as the benefit scrounges

[abillybob]

I totally agree with you, tax avoidance annoys me just as much! But this is a different debate and tax avoidance shouldn't of played a part in it. Overpaid doesn't bother me, it depends what you mean by overpaid, I could state that most of you guys are overpaid as I earn 12k a year and some of the people on here are on 20k+ and still feel like they should get more, the fact is I don't people work hard to get where they are and I respect that so I disagree with your overpaid statement completely!

What a load of censorious killjoys you lot are! If you could work up as much bile about the overpaid and the tax dodgers, I'd concede you have a point.

[abillybob]

Ok fair comment but what about the people for example my Girlfriends parents who buy the tobacco in bulk from people who visit foreign country's a lot. People do this vastly and this has a huge impact which is not considered on your post. So if someone buys a pack of 50g tobacco from abroad it can be had for around £7 here from another person and they aren't paying any tax. I know too many people who do this and it's very hard to do anything about it. Same with Alcohol it all applies, so unless the website you have posted express concerns on these issues then I wouldn't even bother taking these into consideration. There are too many loop holes. We'd have a much better society if it was controlled so vouchers should be the way to go so that people on benefits can't pay for luxury items such as big TV's, Fibre broadband, Sky and instead are forced to spend it on home improvement and food the necessity's that keep people ticking over.

Try again.

 

Factcheck: Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury? | Full Fact

 

About 85% of the cost of cigarettes is tax. Which goes straight back to the government. [And more than covers the NHS' smoking related illness costs.]

 

Also, it costs the NHS more over time if you're healthy.

 

Alcohol, Obesity and Smoking Do Not Cost Health Care Systems Money - Forbes

 

 

 

 

Tax avoidance is legal. [if you're referring to people using clever accounting to pay less tax.]

 

Why pay more than you have to?

[mthomas08]

We need benefits in the UK but there is a lot I disagree with. I believe if your sick but able to work for short periods of time then you should, not just sit there smoke and drink while the state pays for it. The problem with a lot of people on benefits (not all) is their priority's seem to all be wrong in how they spend their money. My girlfriends parents are on benefits "because they are sick" but they spend around £70 a week on tobacco, spend it on loads of alcohol, they have a huge 60" TV with surround sound in their living room, 6 Cats to feed, 1 Dog, 3 Kids and all they do is sit there everyday put the TV on and not move a muscle the house is such a mess. I'm amazed how they can live in it, holes in the doors Cr*p lying all over the floor, hardly ever have enough food to feed their kids properly. Dirty cups and plates lying their for months, so how is it my house is clean but for 9 hours a day I also go to work. It's a prime example the ginger woman and the strange man who lived together with their child on benefits street, there he was walking down to the food bank but he had enough money to buy a designer T-Shirt, Designer Jeans, A new Bike..... It's all about priorities. Instead of the government giving these waste of space people just cash they should give them vouchers to spend so £70 week at supermarkets, £10 week home improvement. Therefore none of the money can be wasted on drugs and alcohol!

 

What you have said right there sums up WHY people are angry and fed up with the benefit system. its disgusting that a real disabled child who will spend his life in a wheel chair gets his benefits cut but people who don't care about anyone or anything continue to get money.

 

People always use the excuse claiming that its all about the "bad press exaggerating the problem" but how many of us actually know people who ARE on benefits. I have a younger sister who has done nothing to help her self yet expects hand outs as if she deserves them. She has barely worked her entire life (soon to be 28) has had her 3rd child with guy number 2 when she had known him for 3 months before she fell pregnant. She spends her money on fags and going out, her kids get the cheapest clothes yet she wears superdry.

 

I completely agree that benefits should be vouchers, been saying it for years (even on here) yet there is always some one who claims they should spend the money on what they want. And frankly its those kind of people who are just adding fuel to the fire of cuts/scrapping of the benefit system entirely. The vouchers can then go on the "NEED" items not the "WANT" items.

[cpjitservices]

We need benefits in the UK but there is a lot I disagree with. I believe if your sick but able to work for short periods of time then you should, not just sit there smoke and drink while the state pays for it. The problem with a lot of people on benefits (not all) is their priority's seem to all be wrong in how they spend their money. My girlfriends parents are on benefits "because they are sick" but they spend around £70 a week on tobacco, spend it on loads of alcohol, they have a huge 60" TV with surround sound in their living room, 6 Cats to feed, 1 Dog, 3 Kids and all they do is sit there everyday put the TV on and not move a muscle the house is such a mess. I'm amazed how they can live in it, holes in the doors Cr*p lying all over the floor, hardly ever have enough food to feed their kids properly. Dirty cups and plates lying their for months, so how is it my house is clean but for 9 hours a day I also go to work. It's a prime example the ginger woman and the strange man who lived together with their child on benefits street, there he was walking down to the food bank but he had enough money to buy a designer T-Shirt, Designer Jeans, A new Bike..... It's all about priorities. Instead of the government giving these waste of space people just cash they should give them vouchers to spend so £70 week at supermarkets, £10 week home improvement. Therefore none of the money can be wasted on drugs and alcohol!

 

THIS ^^^ , you have described my inlaws exactly!! Spend hundreds a week on Cigs, they have quit a couple of times and saw the benefits then the next week they are smoking again. They have Cats, and a disabled son living with them. Father in law broke his back many many many moons ago... no doubt this does affect him and BUT there are jobs hes capable of doing aslong as hes sat down... what about Office work ? or something to do with PC's since he's competent with PC's ? Fair enough my other-in-law is having strokes etc quite a bit and I understand why she can't work. They have been on benefits for a lot of years, I believe it's over 10 years. they have had credit card after credit card and are in masses of debt. They even had to get rid of the mobility car they had as they spend that much on Cigs that they couldn't put fuel in the car.

 

Same story with my Sister in law, nothing wrong with her fully capable of work, She just chooses not to work. Her words to me have been "Why work when I can sit at home and get paid for it? and miss out on time with my Daughter?" (Bearing in mind her daughter doesnt live with her!!).

 

Priorities are all wrong, and to get people to change they need a MASSIVE hoof up the backend!! my wifes family have basically disowned (The in-laws) me now because I am working, I have a job so im not at there immediate call any-more! I'm the outsider!! Excuse me for trying to give me and my family a better life and show them that working does pay.

 

I work and still cannot afford A Car, which for me is the biggest thing!! I know of people on benefits living in 4 5 or 6 bedroom houses, really nice cars and they live with no worries at all.

 

I have no car, but I have a nice house. Tax bills coming out of my ears and at the moment am struggling to feed my self let alone my family!!

 

Hopefully soon, things are going to turn around!

Edited February 4, 2014 by cpjitservices

[synaesthesia]

Would love to know how people could ever believe it's possible to make it so benefits can't be spent on X or Y. Vouchers etc are cheating.

[featured_spectre]

Vouchers can be issued so that a photographic ID is required to use them. If you have no photographic ID, you get an ID card done at the job centre (I had one done for my train pass).

[synaesthesia]

Moot. See last part of the sentence!

The "benefits issue" is small in the long run. Until they fix everything else (taxation being the most closely linked) there is little they can do to improve it. The whole system is utterly fubar, tax credits shouldn't exist, benefits shouldn't exist. In an idealist world, money wouldn't exist but us humans are too collectively stupid for that.

Edited February 4, 2014 by synaesthesia

[sted]

Vouchers can be issued so that a photographic ID is required to use them. If you have no photographic ID, you get an ID card done at the job centre (I had one done for my train pass).

 

or even "simpler" a pre paid debit card that can only be used in certain shops (still need photo) and if you try using it in say harrods it sets off a huge obvious alarm and flashing lights lol

 

the problem is you cant not have a benefit system as there will always be people who genuinely need them but any system can be worked with/round by anyone who is at least as clever as the commitee that designed the system

 

What we actually need in this country imo is a discussion of what benefits are for. To me they are money to tide you over until you get a job/back on your feet (granted disability is different as you might never get back on your feet)

 

same as working tax credits (or whatever they are calle d) make no sense to me so you pay tax then maybe get some back. Why not just alter people tax code so instead of getting £500 a year back (as a random number) just raise the point at where you start paying tax so it works out as the same thing (so instead of 10'500 tax free you get 11'000 sureley its simpler

[abillybob]

How is vouchers cheating? Companies like park give you vouchers that you can spend at certain shops in the high street. The government could make an equivalent where by you have £70 a week and the voucher says you can spend it in shops like Spar, Sainsburys, Asda, etc... and another voucher where you can spend money in Homebase, B&Q for home improvement! Some money to spend at primark, bank and all clothes. Only things you need and not luxuries you want. If you want luxuries go get a job. If they play the whole there is no jobs out there it's rubbish there's still enough jobs for immigrants to want to come over to this country and work, granted the jobs could be peeling potatoes in a food chain for minimum pay or something but who cares? I'd scrub toilets for a living if I had to! Even if they said to people on benefits on job seekers and stuff like that and said we will give you benefits but you can work for the state so pick up some litter 2 days a week would be an improvement and then you'll probably find a lot more people will search for work and find it!

Would love to know how people could ever believe it's possible to make it so benefits can't be spent on X or Y. Vouchers etc are cheating.

 

I liked the quote of the man from Africa in benefits street who said: In Africa if you don't work you don't get simple as that. For people with severe disabilities benefits should be allowed for but not for people who can sit at a desk and type on a keyboard "depression" doesn't stop you typing on a keyboard!

Edited February 4, 2014 by abillybob

[temporaryuser]

Try again.

 

Factcheck: Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury? | Full Fact

 

About 85% of the cost of cigarettes is tax. Which goes straight back to the government. [And more than covers the NHS' smoking related illness costs.]

 

Also, it costs the NHS more over time if you're healthy.

 

Alcohol, Obesity and Smoking Do Not Cost Health Care Systems Money - Forbes

 

 

 

Try harder, on the first point if you assume the revenue derived from Tobacco sales entirely to the NHS then maybe you'd have a point, I think that is highly unlikely to be the case.

 

The Forbes article doesn't take into the account that a 'Healthy person' despite costing more over their lifetime will also contribute more over their lifetime because they live longer. I'm not just talking financially (although that is the case) but think about their relationships with families etc. I bet there are quite a few of us who have had friends/relatives die long before their time thanks to smoking.

[synaesthesia]

^ now that's not a bad idea, @sted. Thumbs up for that one.

 

I speak a little from experience, mostly as our child benefit comes to us in lumps and it's not easy to manage on it's own right. Therefore vouchers etc would make it damn difficult to get by. Whereas, like currently it's just money, the costs involved in day to day living can come out of the benefit payment (bills, a bar of chocolate or a packet of fags if you're that way inclined) yet the cost of childcare, nappies, food etc for that period would still come out of the other household income. It works itself out.

Edited February 4, 2014 by synaesthesia

[tmcd35]

The system is far from perfect, but I think if we're are going to have this discussion (again) we need to disassociate the flaws in the the system with the people. This thread as already got very Daily Mail and is taring alot of people with one brush - "benefits cheats". The problem, I fear, is a lot less prevalent as certain tabloids (and tabloid TV channels (5)) would have us believe.

 

There are about 2.4m unemployed, of which just over 900,000 (less than half) are considered "long term unemployed" (over 1 year). How meny of those 900,000 do we want to class as "scroungers" and how meny are "genuine"? And if the other 1.5m are struggling to get jobs? - Not saying it's right, just putting some perspective on the issue.

 

As for "vouchers" - hell no! I don't believe governments or society should have the right to dictate how I choose to live my life in that level detail. 1984.

[creese]

I liked the quote of the man from Africa in benefits street who said: In Africa if you don't work you don't get simple as that. For people with severe disabilities benefits should be allowed for but not for people who can sit at a desk and type on a keyboard "depression" doesn't stop you typing on a keyboard!

 

Which part of that HUGE continent?

[localzuk]

I liked the quote of the man from Africa in benefits street who said: In Africa if you don't work you don't get simple as that. For people with severe disabilities benefits should be allowed for but not for people who can sit at a desk and type on a keyboard "depression" doesn't stop you typing on a keyboard!

 

And that man is severely misguided. Depression is severely debilitating. Anyone who thinks that depression doesn't get in the way of work doesn't know what they're talking about.