Parents to confront School governors over iPads

[localzuk]

1. Classroom management by Staff and Behaviour Management for failure to follow the rules.

2. Classroom management by Staff and Behaviour Management for failure to follow the rules.

3. The same sanctions that are in place for if you forget your books. Also spare devices are kept in school and charged that can be lent out in school.

4. No, not every lesson require the use of these types of devices and generally students are only allowed to take them out of their bags when staff request them to do so.

 

I fear you miss my point. If a device is unmanaged, it is entirely possible for a kid to be playing around and wasting time without their teacher knowing about it. A simple 2 taps when you see a teacher heading your way and voila, you look like you're working. So, classroom management and behaviour management are almost irrelevant as they'd be impossible to enforce.

 

Spare devices? Great. That'll be cheap, and easy to maintain. If you forget your books, you're given a piece of paper and told to stick it in the book. Can't really do that with the internet!

 

With 4 - so you're now saying that this general purpose device which could be used for textbooks, or for writing up work, or as a calculator or whatever can only be used for internet research and teachers should tell kids to put them away other than then? Seems rather limiting to have such an expensive device used for a single purpose...

@tmcd35 - If a device is BYOD, there is absolutely no way you can enforce any MDM solution. Many of these concerns are more fundamental than implementation concerns, they can and do kill such a project at the off because they are simply insurmountable.

 

You're also assuming every school has a poor implementation of IT that there is restricted access to resources. Our ICT suites here currently have a booking rate of 65%. That's 35% spare capacity. We also have machines in every year 6 classroom, in our year 5 block, in our maths rooms and in our Art and DT rooms. None of them are in use every lesson. If they can't even make full use of existing equipment, its very difficult to justify a need for 1:1 devices.

[Garacesh]

Garacesh, interesting response, I agree with most of what you said. Sorry if I come across as "this is a universal" struggle, not my intent! I'm very aware every school is different and will have different challeges/solutions - which is the whole point really, isn't it?

 

The core challenge is the same everywhere though. How to provide enought ICT resources to meet the communities needs, and how to define what those needs are. It's sounds to me like you already have your solution and to be honest it's one I'd like to mirror here.

 

The problem with the Internet as a resource, is that you can't totally predict when it's going to be needed. If you don't have 1:1 devices then although at times none of the available ICT resources are being used, at other times Year 8 French have to go without because Year 9 German are using the devices this lesson.

 

The question should be "how do we meet these needs", rather than asking "are these needs legitimate". In my mind too meny are asking the later rather than focusing on the former.

 

Not a problem - I understood what you meant, I suppose I was trying to say "Without knowing the current IT Infrastructure of the school in question, none of us can definitively say if this idea is good or bad.", then again, that's why we're debating here

 

The needs are legitimate, I'm certain. The need for students to have internet access in lesson (sometimes) and the need for the students to be able to electronically create work so that it can be modified easily, submitted electronically (where appropriate) and most importantly, backed up to protect against malicious or accidental deletion, corruption or hardware failure. What I personally don't agree with is the way these needs are being addressed. 1:1 iPads is not the solution, in my opinion.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Garacesh

[Ephelyon]

try typing an essay on an ipad and i suspect you will lose the will to live much faster than on a laptop (personally anything longer than a short email i find a pita on a touchscreen)

 

This is why you go for the keyboard case for (in our case) about an extra tenner. I agree with your points in general though.

[Quackers]

This is why you go for the keyboard case for (in our case) about an extra tenner. I agree with your points in general though.

 

Im interested in these £10 keyboard cases, do you have a link?

[tmcd35]

The needs are legitimate, I'm certain. The need for students to have internet access in lesson (sometimes) and the need for the students to be able to electronically create work so that it can be modified easily, submitted electronically (where appropriate) and most importantly, backed up to protect against malicious or accidental deletion, corruption or hardware failure. What I personally don't agree with is the way these needs are being addressed. 1:1 iPads is not the solution, in my opinion.

 

And rather belatedly, that's were I entered this thread. I'm not so certain 1:1 iPads are the solution either, then again I'm not completely convinced they are not either. We know technology moves forward at alarming pace. We know they way kids are using technology has changed radically compared to say 5 years ago. We agree that there are some legitimate needs. The question then is how do we meet those needs? What are the alternative models? And how will those models hold up in 5 years time?

 

I don't know what the right answer is, but I'm interested in finding one because I know this school needs it.

 

@localzuk, I'm not trying to suggest that every school has poor ICT implementation strategies - far from it. I'm guessing the starting point of schools like the OP probably wasn't far off ours. Either that or the head is a technofreek with too much money to spend and no time for proper market research (I've meet some).

 

For me, it's about defining the expected outcomes, the end goal, uses. I see no reason why BYOD can't be part of a solution, and personally I think it's being soft on teachers to suggest that effective classroom management isn't a legitimate answer to some concerns.

[Ephelyon]

Unfortunately I don't specifically, but this is the supplier who provided them with the tablets and they're shown in the videos:

 

Tablet Computers for Schools - Benefits & Challenges

 

They seem to be something like this but with a USB to micro-USB adapter supplied:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Keyboard-Case-Android-Internet-Tablets/dp/B004GHSRIA/

[spadam]

We had a similar sounding 1:1 scheme at my children's primary school a couple of years ago, only the decision then was to use linux minibooks (manged), pre installed with a lot of educational freeware rather than iPads for around 10/month over 3yrs.

 

The 'consultation' with parents on this involved a meeting one evening where we were pitched to about the benefits of 1:1 computing for an hour and then given an information booklet telling us how the scheme (which was already going ahead) was going to work.

 

The way that one worked was that parents entered into a credit agreement with the supplier for each device and then owned it after the 3 year period. We were told that the scheme was optional but that if not enough parents participated it could not go ahead. The school said they would purchase additional devices themselves for pupils which did not participate so they could also use a device in school. Pupils also had the option of providing and bringing their own device in instead but obviously the school would not be able to guarantee they would be able to support them effectively with this.

 

I along with a fair few other parents were not happy. My main objection was that we were being expected to buy 2 more computers that we didn't really want and couldn't really afford because the school wanted to use them to help educate pupils. In my opinion this should be a school purchase. Additionally I had reservations about how much use they would get in school over the 3 years. Some class teachers I knew were enthusiastic about technology and some I knew were not. As a result we did not participate.

 

My children were clearly disappointed when the school year started and a lot of their classmates brought in their new laptops. In lessons they were able to use a school computer as promised but often had to share 1 between 2 along with the others who had not participated. They complained about this quite a bit and in the end guess what - We got them new laptops for Christmas. I don't think it is fair for schools to place this kind of pressure on families to buy high value items.

 

Two years on and I havn't heard mention of the initiative for quite some time. There's been no feedback from the school that I'm aware of about how the scheme has gone, extolling the benefits that this 1:1 program has provided and based on my experience of the school, if the scheme had delivered on the hype we would have heard about it.

 

My overall point here (apart from just letting off steam) is that if the school sees a need for these devices, they should provide them and pay for them. I probably wouldn't object too much to a small affordable parental contribution towards the cost, particularly if they could be brought home.

Edited January 17, 2014 by spadam

[Ephelyon]

I think it's being soft on teachers to suggest that effective classroom management isn't a legitimate answer to some concerns.

 

Some of the time it will work, but it's equally unrealistic to suggest that we should just "tick the box" of any misuse problems by passing the buck to the teachers. It's never worked that way.

[Gibson335]

Effective classroom management...is fine in the hands of some, not so fine in the hands of others, and just awful in the hands of rather too many for my liking. What kind of classroom management is it when you get a mail from a teacher asking you to use Impero to check out what student x is doing on their computer, when they are in that same room with student x supposedly 'managing' the classroom?

 

It's the fear of confrontation, I'm afraid.

[SteveBentley]

To my mind, the only controversy here is who is paying. The big benefit I see, in time, is that all kids will have a device that can get them online, and that will mean that we can totally revamp the curriculum.

 

If we (grudgingly) accept that a large proportion of what happens in education is teaching for the exam, then we can move to a position where the exam is "open net" - all candidates have access to the net via their device. The questions on the paper then become far more complex and have a greater emphasis on researching, evaluating sources, applying knowledge and problem solving rather than regurgitating facts. This makes the exam more relevant to the real world and makes qualifications a more useful barometer of how useful a candidate for a job is going to be.

 

This Guardian blog post about how iPads and iPods have revolutionised year 6 science at one school makes for interesting reading

How we used technology to develop student-led learning in science | Teacher Network | Guardian Professional

[tmcd35]

@Gibson335, I agree entirely - which is why I resist all suggestion that I could be an ICT Instructor. I know I couldn't do certain part of the job. But then, the answer to your point is - what are the SLT doing about poor teaching standards? Surely an effective SLT would have a view on a teachers ability to monitor a class and whether asking ICT support to monitor the class for them is correct behaviour?

 

Technology is not the answer to all problems; bad teaching/management practices are not reasons against using using technology...

 

To my mind, the only controversy here is who is paying.

 

Out of curiosity. What is your view on school uniforms, pencil cases, calculators and homework diarys?

Edited January 17, 2014 by tmcd35

[Gibson335]

what are the SLT doing about poor teaching standards? Surely an effective SLT would have a view on a teachers ability to monitor a class and whether asking ICT support to monitor the class for them is correct behaviour?

 

Technology is not the answer to all problems; bad teaching/management practices are not reasons against using using technology...

QUOTE]

 

The feeble response from SLT simply confirms my own view - the avoidance of conflict. And I would agree, those are not reasons against using technology, but they are reasons for doubting the effectiveness if technology is not better targeted.

[Gibson335]

To my mind, the only controversy here is who is paying. The big benefit I see, in time, is that all kids will have a device that can get them online, and that will mean that we can totally revamp the curriculum.

 

If we (grudgingly) accept that a large proportion of what happens in education is teaching for the exam, then we can move to a position where the exam is "open net" - all candidates have access to the net via their device. The questions on the paper then become far more complex and have a greater emphasis on researching, evaluating sources, applying knowledge and problem solving rather than regurgitating facts. This makes the exam more relevant to the real world and makes qualifications a more useful barometer of how useful a candidate for a job is going to be.

 

This Guardian blog post about how iPads and iPods have revolutionised year 6 science at one school makes for interesting reading

How we used technology to develop student-led learning in science | Teacher Network | Guardian Professional

 

Engagement is the key here (in the article).

[SteveBentley]

Out of curiosity. What is your view on school uniforms, pencil cases, calculators and homework diarys?

 

There's an argument, certainly with pencil cases and calculators, that if kids have to provide their own they're more likely to look after them than if they were provided by the school on a per-session basis.

 

I think lower income families get help with uniform costs? (I know none of that really constitutes a "view", I'm not sure I really have one)

[Garacesh]

Out of curiosity. What is your view on school uniforms, pencil cases, calculators and homework diarys?

They're nowhere near as expensive as £300 over 3 years.

[nikaso]

I've seen the point made in this thread about if the iPads are good for education why doesn't the school buy them. Well 1:1 teacher to student lessons would be good for education but there is no way the school can afford it. School budgets being what they are and given the growing prevalence of smartphones and tablets amongst students I think we are doing a disservice to students if we don't try and integrate these technologies into their education.

 

As it stands we have most schools with the traditional desktops and laptops setup; as soon as the students leave school the majority of their internet consumption will likely take place on smartphones and/or tablets and they are often more skilled in their usage than school staff. If we can harness these skills and leverage them in an educational setting it could lead to outstanding lessons with the right teacher. I think iPads are the popular choice but they have a lot going for them. They are locked down and the quality process for apps is pretty good, they have large scale acceptance amongst students already (being a desired device means they are more likely to take care of them). I'm not saying you couldn't do a similar job with other tablets but Apple certainly have some sort of head-start.

[Hefferzzzz]

They're nowhere near as expensive as £300 over 3 years.

 

and yet many of those who claim not to be able to afford it will have xboxes, playstations, sky tv, foreign holidays, iphones (parent and child)......its £10 a month.

 

If you go on a teachers forum, the majority are for it as they can see an educational benefit to it. On here? Its mainly the tech side problems or the anti tablet/Apple side of things.

[Gibson335]

and yet many of those who claim not to be able to afford it will have xboxes, playstations, sky tv, foreign holidays, iphones (parent and child)......its £10 a month.

 

If you go on a teachers forum, the majority are for it as they can see an educational benefit to it. On here? Its mainly the tech side problems or the anti tablet/Apple side of things.

 

Thing about forums is you only hear the views of those who can be bothered to use the forum. A straw poll here amongst teachers produced a result that was far less enthusiastic.

[sted]

Out of curiosity. What is your view on school uniforms, pencil cases, calculators and homework diarys?

 

school uniform at least makes everyone look roughly the same so yo are less likely to get bullied in school for not wearing the latest designer togs and SHOULD be sensibly priced esp if its just basically say black trousers/skirts white shirt/blouse and a blue jumper say you can get all that from a supermarket for a few quid (school uniforms you have to buy from the school with logos etc on im less sure about unless they are relatively cheap)

 

calculators pencil cases etc are at least cheap and i suspect it would be a lot of hassle at the start of a lesson for everyone go to the class stores cupboard to get out what they need for that lesson rather than drag pencil case out of bag (though i suppose if school provided them with their own rather than shared that wouldnt be an issue.

 

Again where do you draw the line between what reasonable for parents to supply and whats not?

 

BYOD again unless the school specifies apple/ms/android then there is bound to be disparity and even if they do some kid comes in with a £1500 alienware laptop some kids have hand me down android phones you cant tell me whatever you do they are equal devices.

 

As a kid (and tbh as an adult) i wouldnt like walking to school every day with hundreds of quids worth of equipment on me

 

homework diaries should be paid for by the school (at least the 1st one if you cant take care of it then i can see an argument for charging for replacements)

[tmcd35]

They're nowhere near as expensive as £300 over 3 years.

 

Interesting response, not against the idea of payment, just the overall price? Would a one off £50 contribution (an idea we were floating here at one time) be more acceptable?

 

I also wonder how close the average teenager, with ther innate ability to grow when parents can least afford it, could get to £300 in 3 years on uniform? Given one off costs of things like Blazers and shoes, PE kits, etc?

 

If you go on a teachers forum, the majority are for it as they can see an educational benefit to it. On here? Its mainly the tech side problems or the anti tablet/Apple side of things.

 

I for one would be happier moving away from the anti-tablet/Apple side of things and focusing on finding solutions/answers to the tech side.

Edited January 17, 2014 by tmcd35

[Garacesh]

As it stands we have most schools with the traditional desktops and laptops setup; as soon as the students leave school the majority of their internet consumption will likely take place on smartphones and/or tablets and they are often more skilled in their usage than school staff. If we can harness these skills and leverage them in an educational setting it could lead to outstanding lessons with the right teacher. I think iPads are the popular choice but they have a lot going for them. They are locked down and the quality process for apps is pretty good, they have large scale acceptance amongst students already (being a desired device means they are more likely to take care of them). I'm not saying you couldn't do a similar job with other tablets but Apple certainly have some sort of head-start.

 

Yes, but again, that will be for consumption of data. We need devices suited towards the creation of data. Also, when they land themselves a job, if that job requires the use of technology I'll put good money on it not being tablet-based. There is no harnessing of skills because the device these skills are relative to are not relative to an educational setting.

 

and yet many of those who claim not to be able to afford it will have xboxes, playstations, sky tv, foreign holidays, iphones (parent and child)......its £10 a month.

Yes, and I'd like to slap those parents for it. (Although, in the interests of not being too judgemental, all of those except perhaps holidays can be purchased on credit)

I'm not arguing that people can't afford it (Although some will genuinely have difficulty) I'm arguing against the voluntary-(but-not-really-voluntary) 'donation', the emotional blackmail the parents feel they have been subjected to, and the fact that in my opinion this infrastructure is entirely the wrong way to go about it.

 

If you go on a teachers forum, the majority are for it as they can see an educational benefit to it. On here? Its mainly the tech side problems or the anti tablet/Apple side of things.

I'm sure there would be a benefit to some of the students. My personal opinion is that you could get a much greater benefit for potentially less money with a different approach. 1 Device:1 Student is not the correct way to address the issue. I also think that teachers would be less favourable towards this if they truly understood the difficulties that will arise with a scheme like this being implemented (that's assuming the kids want their files on the tablets, which I'm assuming they do, because I'm hoping the school's aren't trying to buy £300 web browsers)

Edited January 17, 2014 by Garacesh

[tmcd35]

Yes, but again, that will be for consumption of data. We need devices suited towards the creation of data.

 

Do we need creation devices in all instances? Or do we need a mixture of consumption and creation devices?

 

I'm arguing against the voluntary-(but-not-really-voluntary)

hence the question on uniform and the vountary-(but-not-really-voluntary) nature of it. How long would a school accept a child turning up in smart black trousers/white shirt - without the rest of the uniform - not because the parents can't afford, but they don't want to pay for a particular tie, blazer, pe kit combination?

 

My personal opinion is that you could get a much greater benefit for potentially less money with a different approach. 1 Device:1 Student is not the correct way to address the issue.

 

So what does that different approach look like?

[spadam]

I've seen the point made in this thread about if the iPads are good for education why doesn't the school buy them. Well 1:1 teacher to student lessons would be good for education but there is no way the school can afford it. School budgets being what they are and given the growing prevalence of smartphones and tablets amongst students I think we are doing a disservice to students if we don't try and integrate these technologies into their education.

 

Yes, I agree that we should be integrating these technologies into the curriculum but not by requiring parents to buy them. Do it in a way that fits within the school budget. If you cannot afford 1:1 provision then don't do it.

[sted]

Do we need creation devices in all instances? Or do we need a mixture of consumption and creation devices?

 

arnt all creation devices (with a few exceptions) consumption devices though? so by having say ipads and laptops the ipads are pointless because the laptops can do all they do and more?

[SteveBentley]

The thing with iPads is that they are very much designed as a device for use by one person, there are no user profiles etc. Anything other than 1:1 becomes a hassle in my experience.