Jobs for the Girls: Encouraging girls to consider qualifications and careers in IT

[Alleycat]

How long have you been working in IT?

10 years

 

Is this your first, second, third, etc career?

Fourth

 

What other jobs / roles have you done previously?

Administrator in RAF, Retail, stores, Catering manager, Hotel manager, (Small) IT Tech. all over 30ish years

 

How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT?

One

 

Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT?

Both, when something hardware related needs fixing, they don't expect a 'pink' thing to do it, you obviously need a special screw driver to do that....

They come to me when presentations/training needs to be done.

 

If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive?

Women, technical? Scientific?:pound:Don't get above yerself dear, secretarial work for you.....

[Andie]

How long have you been working in IT?

 

First post 5 years, some of that part time, current post since Sept 2002.

 

Is this your first, second, third, etc career?

 

First, but I graduated with a BA (Hons) in Library and Information Science!

 

What other jobs / roles have you done previously?

 

My first post was IT, then career break to bring up children, then Domestic Worker for Age Concern, Midday Supervisor at primary school and then my current post.

 

How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT?

 

3 for first post, as I failed second interview for programmer with Boots. I was then asked to come for an interview by my old uni dept and they employed me. One for current post.

 

Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT?

 

I don't think I've ever experienced prejudice within the schools IT sector. Certainly in the minority in this LA, but it can work for me in that it is easier for people to remember me at meetings. I don't have experience outside school IT so can't comment on issues in industry.

 

If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive?

 

Computers were very new when I was at school. At secondary school, our computer lessons largely consisted of learning to fill out punched cards! But I do remember a trip to the Computer Science dept at Warwick Uni to this day. In my uni applications for Library Science, I rejected one uni where I had to do a joint course because the person interviewing me was incredulous that there could be computers in libraries (mid 1980's). The uni dept I joined was very encouraging and we got a wide exposure to the variety of devices around at the time (BBCs, Apple Macs, with dial up to news services using a squeaky modem!).

[GrumbleDook]

The issue is that it is the mother who is expected to work around the children and not the father. Paternity leave has helped, but we need to move to a system whereby, once the child is beyond issues needing the mother only, such as breastfeeding, both parents are equally likely to need flexible working hours to cover childcare issues.

I was lucky, we could afford for me to stay at home until our youngest was in school, and then work part-time so I was always there after school etc. With three, we could never have afforded the childcare anyway. But mrwITch would have happily worked part-time or flexi - 4 long days perhaps - so that we could work it out between us and I could go back to a "proper" job. It was never on the cards though, and sadly, 15+ years later, it still isn't the norm

I wasn't able to keep my career and whilst I love my job now, the salary I am on isn't a huge amount of help to us and I certainly can't run the household on my own. Even if I went full-time and got out of education, the salaries around here are pretty poor.

 

This is something that interests me a lot ... originally I left the forces and only took a tech job in a school as a stop gap as it was always intended that I would be a house-husband ... my experience of working with young children was behind this, but we both felt happy with it.

 

Things happened and I took on more work ... starting a family happened later and later ... and next thing we know I have become manglement and earn more than my wife. It then made sense to swap things around ... and that is how things still stand.

 

Given half a chance I would give it all up or simply go part-time so that I could spend more time with the little one ... but I have a feeling that if we were in that financial position I would be fighting my wife over that honour ... and we do feel it would be a privilege and honour to be able to do this as a job. Parenthood is precious to us ... but we know that we *have* to be more pragmatic about it and get frustrated when it is always the mother who is expected to take leave. We definitely felt that was the presumption as we went through the adoption process ... even from the approval and placement panels.

 

My wife is swapping schools when she returns from leave (part of our relocation too) so this is made a little less painful, but she found that some schools were a little cagey about her joining them due to us being new to parenthood ... so I don't think this is limited to IT in schools.

[GrumbleDook]

-It is striking from reading this thread that most of those replying are "my age"... more mature females

 

Are the younger generation mostly working in industry or have they decided not to respond/reply to @GrumbleDook by PM?

 

I didn't really want to push on age as I didn't want the conversation to be around issue to do with agism. It is a factor thought, especially considering some respondents have talked about joining the IT profession after returning to work after breaks to concentrate on raising families.

[elsiegee40]

I didn't really want to push on age as I didn't want the conversation to be around issue to do with agism. It is a factor thought, especially considering some respondents have talked about joining the IT profession after returning to work after breaks to concentrate on raising families.

 

It still begs the question 'are we a scientific sample?'

 

Are the women in education IT predominantly of an older generation? I don't think that's the case with the men. Where are the younger females? Are they not choosing to work in IT when younger, or are they pursuing IT careers elsewhere? Or do younger female IT staff just not join edugeek?

Edited February 25, 2013 by elsiegee40

[Ephelyon]

Quite a few of the women posting in this thread have mentioned the common view from when they were younger that women "shouldn't" go into IT, be it through statements from teachers / lecturers / career advisors or just from society in general. This wouldn't have been the case for the men, so is it possible that these women have only come into IT later on because that view is far less common now?

 

In a sense, they were less constricted by the Zeitgeist around "left-brain/right-brain jobs" in later life, so the career option seemed to "open up" for them. Traditionally Western society always promoted certain types of jobs for men and certain types for women, which in earlier times we would have interpreted psychologically as the left-brain and right-brain respectively. Because the left-brain logical analysis stereotype is commonly associated with large parts of an IT role, and the myth around men and women is that they will always suit jobs typically associated with brain hemisphere "specialisms", we took the kind of views we used to take (albeit for the wrong reasons). Christian Jarrett talks a little about this here:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-myths/201206/why-the-left-brain-right-brain-myth-will-probably-never-die

 

From a psychological standpoint though, the "myth" does ring true a little. We introduce a lot of these predominantly left-brain young men, who enjoy the technology for what it is rather than what it does (not a sin at that stage as I've said before), to the IT industry by means of a support role. Unfortunately this often involves a lot more empathy for other people in different situations (typically right-brain stuff) than they're prepared for. The educational technologist should be someone who may well be predominantly left-brain in terms of the level of logical deduction you need to understand the technology and troubleshoot it, but also has a well-developed right-brain otherwise we can see the situations we sometimes encounter with IT staff who just can't empathise with users who can't grasp computing fundamentals as finger-snappily as they can (again, just different kinds of people).

Edited February 25, 2013 by Ephelyon

[witch]

I think it may well be that many men are more suited to IT than women- all I care about is that they get an equal chance at it and are told that they can make a career of it if they choose to.

My grammar school- an all girl's establishment- now pushes any and all tech careers for girls- alongside any other career they can think of, which is very good. The only thing they don't like, and twas ever thus, is when a girl has the temerity to want to leave at 16, even if they are going to the local college, which most of them are!

[elsiegee40]

I'm not denying that, like me, the other older women were not encouraged to do anything remotely scientific... IT only just existed as we emerged from school, so I'll use a broader brush.

 

What I'm querying is the apparent disproportionate response of those of us in the age 40+ bracket. There are not many from women at the start of their working lives, so where are these women?

[Ephelyon]

Perhaps, reading GD's questions, they thought it was aimed more at women who already have somewhat of an established career in IT? They don't give that implication to me but maybe others thought they'd have little to add at this stage.

[kaphc]

I'm not denying that, like me, the other older women were not encouraged to do anything remotely scientific... IT only just existed as we emerged from school, so I'll use a broader brush.

 

What I'm querying is the apparent disproportionate response of those of us in the age 40+ bracket. There are not many from women at the start of their working lives, so where are these women?

 

Well (and it gives me great pleasure to say this!) I'm under 40. Only been working in Educational IT for 3.5 years though ... and again it's due to the factor that it gives me work/life balance now I have two children. The private sector IT I used to work in was from the age of 22 so it's kind of been my whole life once I got out of "casual" jobs from the ages of 18+.

[AMLinington]

Perhaps the older mean age of edugeek members reflects the nature of women in educational IT, but I can't say that it reflects IT overall. I am 30 this year and whilst I might joke about being/feeling old the truth is that I am pre-family. I have worked throughout my IT career in the private sector in Managed services and Support roles and generally, the first line and 'lower technical level' roles tend to be occupied by younger people just out of college starting on their career path but as you get higher up the ladder mean ages start to rise - this is exactly what you would expect, except when you look at the public sector and school specifically, there aren't actually that many steps on the ladder for non-teaching staff - probably 4 at most - technician, snr tech, assistant NM and NM or some combination thereof. So people stay in the 'lower' roles for longer and since Edugeek is specifically aimed at the education sector, the demographic answering these questions is skewed.

 

I do think that girls should be nurtured and encouraged to pursue technical roles but can any NM on here honestly say they'd employ a year 11 female leaver into a baseline role? Without experience? There will probably be 2 or 3 that have exceptionally bright pupils but the vast majority will want some experience so younger women in IT roles are probably in the private sector.

 

Does that make sense?

[Ephelyon]

If I were going to be employing a Year 11 leaver, I wouldn't be bothered about their gender.

[AMLinington]

If I were going to be employing a Year 11 leaver, I wouldn't be bothered about their gender.

 

No, and the question is valid for any gender of Y11 leaver, I just put 'female' because this thread is about encouraging girls into IT. It's more about whether you'd employ a Y11 leaver without experience (and bearing in mind the age situation in schools - it is dangerous to employ 16yos in a school environment when their friends and siblings may still be in lower year groups and 'relationships' are more likely between a your Y11 leaver and a pupil) or whether you would encourage that leaver to go find work in the private sector to get experience.

[Ephelyon]

It depends on your situation. We employed our apprentice at 17 who's from the local area but a different school. He's now finishing his apprenticeship as well as a host of other training courses and was able to mind the fort for me when I was off ill for a month last year. Overall I'd say he's a success story and evidence that it can be done.

[X-13]

It's more about whether you'd employ a Y11 leaver without experience (and bearing in mind the age situation in schools - it is dangerous to employ 16yos in a school environment when their friends and siblings may still be in lower year groups and 'relationships' are more likely between a your Y11 leaver and a pupil) or whether you would encourage that leaver to go find work in the private sector to get experience.

 

Personally, I wouldn't care.

 

I've known teachers to be close with pupils, though I doubt it's in the same league as 'relationships', I'm guessing you mean getting romantically involved. Yes, we've ALL heard stories of that happening, but for the most part there are rules about this sort of thing and as long as the Year 11 leaver knows them, and is warned of the consequences, I don't see an issue. Young != stupid.

 

As for younger siblings, I see that the same as any other member of staff having children in the school. Again, there are rules [at least here] about that sort of thing. Mostly things like "make sure you follow proper procedures if something happens".

 

Overall I'd say he's a success story and evidence that it can be done.

 

I started here at 18. Not an apprentiship, a proper [low paid, few hours] job.

[Ephelyon]

Count yourself lucky; an apprenticeship is low-paid with many hours. Ours only got paid more (in the end) and trained more than the basics because I fought for it.

[AMLinington]

Count yourself lucky; an apprenticeship is low-paid with many hours. Ours only got paid more (in the end) and trained more than the basics because I fought for it.

 

Which is a shame because IMO vocational experience-based qualifications really are the way forward in practical fields - I've seen some terrible applicants coming from University claiming to have degrees in IT and they don't hold a candle to someone with a vocational background. University is good for theoretical disciplines and very highly specialised jobs (Doctors for example) but for practical jobs involving technical skill I really do feel that we should examine vocational pathways as we all know that the best way to learn in IT is to do.

[elsiegee40]

I can see schools being cautious over the employment if very young staff regardless of gender. The reaction of a few if the edugeeks is such that they have not found it easy working in schools when they are the same age as the students. Gender doesn't come into it. It's getting the teachers to treat you as a colleague rather than a student.

 

When I was at uni, I spent a summer working for PGL in France. My own school came out... I'd only been gone a year. It was very hard for the teachers to treat me as a canoe instructor and I found it very hard it not to defer to them!

[nyiss]

How long have you been working in IT?

4 Years, 2 of them in Education

Is this your first, second, third, etc career?

By no means my first job but the only one I would consider making into a career

What other jobs / roles have you done previously?

Au Pair, One.doc coordinator, Graphic and web designer, Graphic Illustrator, IT Technician (current)

How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT?

My first Job in IT was as a One.doc Coordinator in a power station it was awful and almost put me off IT for life! only had one interview for that but I knew the guy interviewing me so I doubt that counts for much. For my first job as a Tech I had one interview and then was placed in a local school for 6 months and then the school decided if they would take me on permanently after that so I guess I just had a really long interview!

Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT?

Both, I think being female, right or wrong actually helped me get the job during the interview I had for this role. They actually triple checked with me that I was applying for the correct role and then said it was very refreshing to see a women and that it helped make me more approachable to schools with a large percentage of female staff. A lot of the staff have commented the same. But then I have the same issues as a lot of people in this post where people never believe that I am the Technician but that could be to do with me being young as I am 23. During the first 6 months working here I had to go on a bundle of health and safety, child protection etc course that was specifically aimed at Technicians. They were running an admin one at the same time and I was told more than once I was in the wrong place and redirected to the admin course room -.-

If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive?

None, I had a really good IT Teacher in school but the subjects just didn’t go into enough detail we only learnt the basics like word processing etc but nothing about hardware or any software development etc so I think even if I knew what I wanted to do back then it wouldn’t have been enough of the nitty gritty stuff.

[GrumbleDook]

An apprentice may be low-paid in money terms, but the other part of how they are paid is in training, access to expertise, mentoring and general help and support. Sometimes, that bit is hard to quantify and so much more important. That is why internships are sought after in some firm.

[Ephelyon]

True; I don't think ours is ungrateful due to his awareness of that very fact.

[LazyFanatic]

How long have you been working in IT?

25+ years

What other jobs / roles have you done previously?

I started out as a clerk, moved onto an accounting trainee scheme then moved into IT. I worked first for a large manufacturing company who used an IBM mainframe then moved onto PCs. I was contractor/consultant in the city for a while then had children. I took a few years out after my second child was born as the city is not child friendly. I then got this job in a school.

How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT?

I have got every job I have applied for.

Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT?

I never found it either.

If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive?

When I was at school I wanted to be a long-distance lorry driver, my careers advisor suggested I be a secretary! It was not an enlightened school and those where not enlightened times.

At this school there are two of us IT techies and we are both female. Neither of us is ‘girlie’ but we are still feminine. I have never really considered that my gender has anything to do with my ability to do a job. I happen to have the right mindset for IT, I like to think that I am ok at it despite not having had any formal training.

[Ephelyon]

It seems the BCS has clarified its position on this matter:

 

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