Infrastructure update - what to replace and what to keep?

[mdrabble]

I've after using my fellow edugeekers as a sounding board to bounce some ideas around, so please forgive the incoherent babble, but hopefully it make some kind of sense......

 

A bit of background on current setup.

 

• Network is a mixture of CAT5e and CAT6 cabling from edge cabs to desktops and other edge devices.
  
• Edge Cabs to Core are a mixture of OM1 and OM3 (with OM3 running at 10gb)
  
• Edge Switches are mainly Unifi EdgeMax both POE and non POE (black ones - none cloud managed), also have 4 x FS switches.
  
• Wifi APs are Unifi NanoHD (Wifi5) installed 6 years ago, when it was just staff connecting using mobile devices.
  

 

I had a Wifi survey done and it has confirmed what I thought about problematic areas, but also helped in confirming number of APs and locations to achieve full site coverage.

 

So far the plan is:

Finally replace the OM1 to OM4 and run at 10gb (approx 8 runs)

 

Expand our Wifi to give full site coverage, as we now have 3 laptop trollies and some other additional laptops - which comes to approx 100+ laptops - which is why we had a Wifi survey as I knew we had some problem areas.

 

I'm not sure if to purchase additional 41 x Wifi6 Unifi APs and then replace the existing 43 x NanoHD (Wifi5) versions over time or bite the bullet and drop them and go with another provider for 84 x new APs - but without the stupid costs involved.

 

New APs will need new cables running and at the same time I am thinking of running cables to the interactive screen, so we can use the Management software on them.

 

Some teacher connections are CAT5e - would you keep the CAT5e or replace with new CAT6?

 

Part of me is thinking, if new APs have 2.5gb ports, do I look at replacing some Edge Switches, with 2.5gb ports, so new Wifi APs can take full advantage of the speeds?

 

This will then hopefully tie in nicely for if/when we roll out staff laptops in Sept 2025. (Using Dock when in teaching rooms, but then Wifi when they are in areas which out docks)

 

 

What are people thoughts on the above?

 

Cheers

[DrCheese]

I would skip Wifi 6 at this point & go straight to 7 (U7-Pro or U7-Pro-Max) as the cost is virtually the same - Is what we're planning as like you we have NanoHD's everywhere. We only had a few U6 pro's in high use areas.

 

As for the 2.5gb requirement - Yes, I would start replacing edge switches with that in mind. A lot of 6E/7 Points require POE+ as well.

 

Cat 5e - I would only bother replacing the ones that feed your access points as I wouldn't see a need for teacher connections to be anything faster than 1gb (& you can run 2.5gbe over Cat 5e, just at lower distance)

[Rob_D]

Looks like a good plan to me.

 

I'm not sure if to purchase additional 41 x Wifi6 Unifi APs and then replace the existing 43 x NanoHD (Wifi5) versions over time or bite the bullet and drop them and go with another provider for 84 x new APs - but without the stupid costs involved.

I'd probably look at replacing the whole lot, mixing and matching is probably just going to lead to headaches down the line.

New APs will need new cables running and at the same time I am thinking of running cables to the interactive screen, so we can use the Management software on them.

Sounds like a good idea.

Some teacher connections are CAT5e - would you keep the CAT5e or replace with new CAT6?

What's the business case for doing this now? I guess if you've got the money and cabling guys are already coming in then why not? But if the current cabling is working fine, then there's no real technical reason apart from "future proofing".

Part of me is thinking, if new APs have 2.5gb ports, do I look at replacing some Edge Switches, with 2.5gb ports, so new Wifi APs can take full advantage of the speeds?s

If you're going hard on the mobile devices then I could see an advantage to this, although I'd maybe focus on switching to managed switches more than increased speed (no reason you can't potentially do both).

[FN-GM]

Do not go multi mode OM4 - go Single Mode OS2.

 

Why?

 

• The main reason is Single Mode is much more future proof, it can carry fast speeds at longer distances. You won't need to upgrade as much.
  
• If you want, you can use Bi Directional SFP. This means you only need 1 strand of fibre not 2. Effectively doubling the capacity of the cable.
  
• You can also use it to patch through incoming telco fibre - should you need to.
  
• Single Mode used to be more expensive than multi mode. But with lots of fibre to the home installations it's made it much cheaper. A recent install at work, it was cheaper!
  

 

One big thing to note, if your cable runs are over 125 meters and you want to go above 10gig in the future that OM4 cable will be no good. It will be maxed out the day it is installed.

 

Edited June 24, 2024 by FN-GM

[Alastairb25]

Who did you use for the survey?

 

We are similar.

 

Testing some Juniper kit, seems to point more to building issues

[mdrabble]

Who did you use for the survey?

 

We are similar.

 

Testing some Juniper kit, seems to point more to building issues

 

Arranged via by account manager at Misco.

[msi_school]

Have you looked at the DFE guidelines these are quite good and give you a back up when defending your decisions

 

 

Do not go multi mode OM4 - go Single Mode OS2.

 

Why?

 

• The main reason is Single Mode is much more future proof, it can carry fast speeds at longer distances. You won't need to upgrade as much.
  
• If you want, you can use Bi Directional SFP. This means you only need 1 strand of fibre not 2. Effectively doubling the capacity of the cable.
  
• You can also use it to patch through incoming telco fibre - should you need to.
  
• Single Mode used to be more expensive than multi mode. But with lots of fibre to the home installations it's made it much cheaper. A recent install at work, it was cheaper!
  

 

One big thing to note, if your cable runs are over 125 meters and you want to go above 10gig in the future that OM4 cable will be no good. It will be maxed out the day it is installed.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]71750[/ATTACH]

 

 

I was going to recommend single mode fibre, although as the DFE guidelines above recommend a minimum of OM4 you can have problems explaining that OS2 is better.

 

I would not replace the Cat5e unless it is causing an issue, it can run 10Gbps up to 45m and 1Gbps for 100m per the spec so for end user devices this should be plenty for the next few years.

 

I would strongly recommend that you get a data cabling company to do the install not an electrician and make sure you get a full test report on the install to British Standards 50173.

[mdrabble]

Looks like a good plan to me.

 

What's the business case for doing this now? I guess if you've got the money and cabling guys are already coming in then why not? But if the current cabling is working fine, then there's no real technical reason apart from "future proofing".

 

 

Was purely for future proofing.

 

Cabling is going to be done all in house, so was just thinking since we running some cables, would it be worth doing - but realistically it is just "could do" rather than "must do"

[mdrabble]

Have you looked at the DFE guidelines these are quite good and give you a back up when defending your decisions

 

 

 

 

 

I was going to recommend single mode fibre, although as the DFE guidelines above recommend a minimum of OM4 you can have problems explaining that OS2 is better.

 

I would not replace the Cat5e unless it is causing an issue, it can run 10Gbps up to 45m and 1Gbps for 100m per the spec so for end user devices this should be plenty for the next few years.

 

I would strongly recommend that you get a data cabling company to do the install not an electrician and make sure you get a full test report on the install to British Standards 50173.

 

 

Never even thought about single mode, as I just had Dfe standards and OM4 in my head.

[FN-GM]

I think this is a major oversight by the DFE. Repeating what I said above, OM4 is very likely to be maxed out on the day it’s installed. There will be lots of installs that exceed 125 meters.

 

Someone should approach them about this…

[psydii]

 

I would not replace the Cat5e unless it is causing an issue, it can run 10Gbps up to 45m and 1Gbps for 100m per the spec so for end user devices this should be plenty for the next few years.

 

 

I do wonder if the increased prevalence of 2.5gb switches and devices might be a bit of a sleeper problem for sites with longer cat5e runs. Particularly if they weren’t installed and tested to spec.

[Rob_D]

I do wonder if the increased prevalence of 2.5gb switches and devices might be a bit of a sleeper problem for sites with longer cat5e runs. Particularly if they weren’t installed and tested to spec.

If the cable was out of spec wouldn't it just limit the speed to 1gb?

 

I can't see office computing needing more than a 1gb connection for the foreseeable future, but I guess you never know.

[psydii]

If the cable was out of spec wouldn't it just limit the speed to 1gb?

 

I can't see office computing needing more than a 1gb connection for the foreseeable future, but I guess you never know.

 

It might pass the initial test but fail as other nearby links come up and the noise gets too much. Then the link goes down and auto-negotiation starts again. I can imagine this getting not pretty quite quickly for some sites.

 

See NBase-T downshift.

[msi_school]

I do wonder if the increased prevalence of 2.5gb switches and devices might be a bit of a sleeper problem for sites with longer cat5e runs. Particularly if they weren’t installed and tested to spec.

 

Could be, but pulling lots of new network to your end points is a drag, it might be worth getting them tested first.

[DrCheese]

Could be, but pulling lots of new network to your end points is a drag, it might be worth getting them tested first.

 

Yeah, as I say I can't see desktops needing more than 1gb anytime soon (Ask me this in 10 years!) - I would focus on getting multiGB to your wireless points instead.

[psydii]

Yeah, as I say I can't see desktops needing more than 1gb anytime soon (Ask me this in 10 years!) - I would focus on getting multiGB to your wireless points instead.

 

You’re not wrong, and classroom AV doesn’t need 8K 120hz, but if either endpoint supports it, it will try to negotiate its link at that speed, and then incrementally downwards until it achieves a mutually agreeable datarate. If the cables are long or of insufficient specification all sorts of oddness can occour.

 

The capability of the hardware in the endpoints is outstripping our needs, and if our cables aren’t up to it, somewhat ironically we will end up with less reliable connections.

 

That said, most of our “wired desktops” are actually on the wireless these days. So as long as the cabling to the APs is good perhaps everything else is moot.

[DrCheese]

You’re not wrong, and classroom AV doesn’t need 8K 120hz, but if either endpoint supports it, it will try to negotiate its link at that speed, and then incrementally downwards until it achieves a mutually agreeable datarate. If the cables are long or of insufficient specification all sorts of oddness can occour.

 

The capability of the hardware in the endpoints is outstripping our needs, and if our cables aren’t up to it, somewhat ironically we will end up with less reliable connections.

 

That said, most of our “wired desktops” are actually on the wireless these days. So as long as the cabling to the APs is good perhaps everything else is moot.

 

ah I see what you mean, if we have 2.5gb/multigb switches & PCs but the cabling isn't good enough. Then yeah it would try to go at 2.5gb first, then down (Or try and hold onto 2.5gb over a poor connection)

 

I guess in that case you'd just set the advertised speeds on the switch to be 1gb (I can click on/off what our switches will try in an auto neg)

Course, If all the switch end can do is 1gb anyway that's all the endpoint will try to negotiate with anyway (& visa versa)

[mdrabble]

Thanks for all the replies, really insightful and massive help.

 

Major spanner in the works is I’ve found out we are having a full electrical rewire in half the building (lights and sockets - whole 9 yard) which is going to be done in phases starting in the summer - thankfully I’ve managed to persuade management I need to be at the meeting with the selected contractor so I know what is happening and when as will seriously impact what I need to get done.

[Frankie76]

I would skip using Unifi and look at Cambium as these are a far better AP for density and coverage.

Cambium Networks XV2-2X00A00-EU - Cambium Networks XV2-2 1774.5 Mbit/s (lambda-tek.com)

You may want to contact our installers below who can provide hardware and install costs for Cat6A cabling, they also just offer supply of AP's at a much cheaper rate then the website above suggests.

WiFi - WM Networks | End to End IT For Businesses