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General Chat Thread, Warp Capable Ship Concept in General; I did read that some scientists think that bringing a ship powered by an Alcubierre drive out of warp would ...
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    JJonas's Avatar
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    I did read that some scientists think that bringing a ship powered by an Alcubierre drive out of warp would kill all of the life in the star system you were arriving in. So it might be a one way trip.

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    GREED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJonas View Post
    I did read that some scientists think that bringing a ship powered by an Alcubierre drive out of warp would kill all of the life in the star system you were arriving in. So it might be a one way trip.
    Pahahaha... forget phasers... just hit the brake peddle!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJonas View Post
    I did read that some scientists think that bringing a ship powered by an Alcubierre drive out of warp would kill all of the life in the star system you were arriving in. So it might be a one way trip.
    oh look klingons. Whoops theyre all dead

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    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    What I want to know is how this works with the Causality Principle. No, the ship doesn't move FTL, it warps space around it... but theoretically you could travel to a star 50 light years away, see what's going on, FTL back and beat the light from the star, thus violating causality. Would love to know if that therefore invalidates the causality principle or how it all works together.

    Might punt it over to StarTalk Radio and hope NdGT answers it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    Yer I get that according to Mr Albert, that is impossible... I'll wait for the day it is proved wrong but that aside for a moment...

    So what you are saying is that every atom in the universe would move around the ship while that stays in position? So a collision is just not possible?
    The problem with FTL travel is one of Mr Einstein's fundamental laws of physics, you cannot travel faster then light. It is the speed limit of the universe and nothing can travel any faster (at the moment, science is there to be challenged!). This poses a major problem for a field of science called Faster Than Light travel!

    The warp drive works by cheating the laws of physics without actually breaking them and travelling faster then light. It treats space like a ship sitting on a tablecloth, space in front of the ship is compressed dragging it forwards whilst space behind the ship is expanded, pushing it along. As you do this tug and push motion, the ship inches along from one point of the cloth to another. The ship itself exists in a "warp bubble" of unaffected space that doesn't move to prevent A) The crew being slammed against the bulkheads and turned into a bloodied paste along the walls at the sudden excessive G-Forces of conventional FTL speeds and B) Debris is warped around the bubble preventing even a small speck of dust from impacting the ship's hull releasing vast amounts of energy and causing a catastrophic impact. Also, because the space around the ship is moving but the ship itself isn't, it is therefore not breaking the fundamental speed limit of the universe because it isn't actually moving and thus complies with the laws of physics.

    Of course no-one has actually built a warp drive yet and there are still problems like radiation shielding, power supply (that could make the latter problem worse) impulse drives for low speed manoeuvres and finding ways to make sure the crew don't kill each other once they realise how isolated they are to overcome. Along with would it actually work in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    What I want to know is how this works with the Causality Principle. No, the ship doesn't move FTL, it warps space around it... but theoretically you could travel to a star 50 light years away, see what's going on, FTL back and beat the light from the star, thus violating causality. Would love to know if that therefore invalidates the causality principle or how it all works together.

    Might punt it over to StarTalk Radio and hope NdGT answers it.
    how does that affect causality? you do something 50 light years away you see it 50 years later just because you got there and back before the light did dosent mean it cant happen it just means if your viewer was good enough you could see yourself there

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    We talk about these laws like they are government laws, and how to evade (or avoid) them. According to Albert, it just cannot be done rather than we need to cheat them.

    I'm not saying all of this isn't possible still!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    how does that affect causality? you do something 50 light years away you see it 50 years later just because you got there and back before the light did dosent mean it cant happen it just means if your viewer was good enough you could see yourself there
    Because you would carry back the information about what is going to happen before the information could physically arrive at Earth. You would know the effect before you saw the cause.

    What you could do with that information, I don't know, but it would violate the principle AFAIK.

    EDIT: similar to discussions of instantaneous communications: http://www.askamathematician.com/201...ate-causality/
    Last edited by sonofsanta; 12th June 2014 at 09:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by X-13 View Post
    "First contact" #ShotsFired

    We're too violent.
    Reminds me of the opening scene from the ONLY decent ENTERPRISE episode:


  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    how does that affect causality? you do something 50 light years away you see it 50 years later just because you got there and back before the light did dosent mean it cant happen it just means if your viewer was good enough you could see yourself there
    Time operates as normal. If it takes 2 weeks to travel there at "light speed" then it takes 2 weeks for the crew. However, we'd not see them via a telescope until the light from there has travelled to us - so it would be a further 2 weeks until we see it (if we're talking about warping about at light speed).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    We talk about these laws like they are government laws, and how to evade (or avoid) them. According to Albert, it just cannot be done rather than we need to cheat them.
    Isn't Einstein that came up with warped space as part of his Special Theory of Releativity? I think the concepts is space is folded so two point that where distant are suddenly alot closer together, you then travel between those two points at normal speed - there is no FTL travel. When space is unfolded you are at your new destination and the old destination is now back to being light years away. I'm sure it's been proven that space does indeed warp and fold in this way, and I'm sure gravity comes into the equation somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    Because you would carry back the information about what is going to happen before the information could physically arrive at Earth. You would know the effect before you saw the cause.

    What you could do with that information, I don't know, but it would violate the principle AFAIK.
    but its still physicall happened you are changing nothing other than the time its viewed its not time travel (it just looks like it). My read is its the same as being on set when they record say qi you already know whats happened even though its not broadcast for 4 weeks knowing what will happen in 4 weeks dosent change anything but from the point of view of someone who wasnt there the tv programe is in the future they dont know what happened

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    This post is a better exploration of the issue, actually (just reading through it now): Q: Hyperspace, warp drives, and faster than light travel: why not? | Ask a Mathematician / Ask a Physicist

    In short: FTL travel gets complicated because of frames, lightlike, timelike and spacelike separation, and allows you to travel back in time which is really messy and shouldn't be able to happen (by going somewhere FTL then coming back again FTL, you skip back in time).

    Most of this is over my head, mind you. I know enough to ask the question and not enough to understand any answer

    Say you’ve got the Enterprise (NCC-1701) and it works just like you’d expect: it cruises around at sub-light speeds until it engages its warp drive, which allows it to move at FTL speeds. It moves from one star system to another, then eventually disengages the drive and “drops out of warp”, no harm no foul. However! When viewed from a different frame, the same situation can be very strange.

    The engage and disengage events are spacelike separated, so they don’t actually have an order. From (any one of) the proper frames, the disengage event can happen first (right half of the image above). When that’s the case you find that:

    -First there’s one ship, traveling slower than light.

    -Then suddenly, and without cause of any kind, two new copies of the ship appear at a place some distance away. One is traveling faster than light, and the other is traveling slower. This event corresponds with the drive being shut down.

    -The FTL version travels backward until it contacts the original ship, at which point they both disappear at the moment that the original engages its drive.

    Now, sure, ships coming into existence and popping out again may seem bad enough, but the big problem is that FTL travel opens the door to backward time travel (forward is fine: you’re doing it now).

    By taking a couple spacelike paths that end earlier than they started you can zig-zag back in time and find yourself in the same place you started, but earlier than the time when you originally left.
    Last edited by sonofsanta; 12th June 2014 at 10:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    'Could' is right. It will take 50 years to perfect the system, given it is only a concept so far, then need to build the thing. It is taking us 25 years to build HS2 for blasphemy sake!
    I could still be around in 50 years

    As for the HS2 garbage only reason that's happening/not happening is we don't blooming need it. Government should have stuck the billions into building a huge FTTP program to every home in the UK and then once up and running privatise it to recoup as much of the money as possible. We'd then have been the world leaders in connectivity and we wouldn't need HS2 ripping up the countryside and devaluing peoples homes etc because it would make home working much more feasible. In fact you could have diversified call centres with people logging in from home to take calls reducing companies overheads and making it much easier for people with disabilities to work.

    But what the hell do I know i'm just a schmuck that pays their taxes...
    Last edited by Bananas; 12th June 2014 at 11:12 AM.

  16. 2 Thanks to Bananas:

    Garacesh (12th June 2014), tmcd35 (12th June 2014)

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