GREED

Bad luck yes but a very common occurrence in reality. Yes fire alarm means get out, thanks for reading the staff handbook. Reality = people always print out fire lists. You suggest that apps and tech is not the answer. Ok that's fine you have plausible reasons. I don't disagree it has issues. You suggest printing lists when the alarm sounds is not good. I agree too. I suggest printing a list daily just in the event is a huge waste of resources. So what is left if we agree with the published advice from the Fire service that a roll call should be taken? No tech, no paper list... It is all a compromise. Which ensures people are kept as safe as possible?

Spot on! Probably puts part of this conversation to bed now.

I'm not, and clearly according to some here it would be a complete waste of time if one was to, because schools just shouldn't bother checking to see if their kids have all got out of a burning building alive... I'm very much disinterested with a specific solution electronic or otherwise now. The fundamental 'facts' as keeps being quoted disturb me. App or printed list, or very bottom line each tutor knows who is missing, there absolutely has to be a roll call. You talk about not realising a lack of presence... so what about when form tutor is absent and a cover teacher is in charge, perhaps supply or cover supervisor, who doesn't know each child in their class? Perhaps it is first day of the new school year? I think sensibility comes into play too, no one is suggesting a staff member sit in a burning room printing lists. If the room is on fire the leave (I'd be concerned if a whole room was on fire before the fire alarms sounded!) If not then a quick routine to print lists is plausible. Then back to a solution, which is the least likely in a tested scenario to fail, compromised with time, effort, Safety and many other factors. Does an app on a tablet that can be picked up in a second on the way out offer a better rounded solution than waiting for lists to print, given both can be inaccurate, against the chances the device fails... And to be clear, I have never suggested a dedicated app for a fire register, I have leaned more towards and electronic function only, preferably one within the MIS either as a fire evac function or simply refer to the class or am/pm registers. I think that easily covers the need.

Does anyone link Progresso to Moodle currently? In any form? Successfully? I know my former employers at SchoolsICT should have this ready this summer... I'm not aware of any others.

Yer... I'd like to hear a fire chief publicly say these things. I'm not saying that isn't what you have been told but I'd really like to have that on the record from the experts saying not to bother counting your kids out just leave it to them when they turn up and they will check everywhere for an unknown number of possibly missing kids... As a parent, a school that took that policy, I would remove my child.

clearly not! I'm kidding. But you have not mentioned what the advice is, only that they have said lists will be ignored. Great to say what not to do, how about what to actually do, a positive step... that is why I asked.

I agree Phil. You have clearly spent time with the fire brigade so bow to your knowledge. Is the advice from them not to bother with taking a register when everyone is out on the field, but just get them out and let the fire fighters sweep. Ignore a solution for the moment I'm very interested in the advice from them, based on your or anyone's conversations.

I think this warrants a dedicated thread... given the sector... and the scale of his cock ups... Plus didn't spot that, thanks

What more is there to say really... only 4 years too late...

Well that is the suggestion, if school staff are not accounting for who is in and not, because the fire brigade will ignore it anyway, then they will search the buildings regardless... I'm struggling where the confusion is, particularly as this is what most responders to this thread have insinuated... Totally agree with Elsiegee40, something has to be better than nothing. I'm also lost as to why it is pointless to know if you are missing 2 kids, and possibly know where they are? Surely that helps the fire brigade as to where to search first, possibly. At the very least... hence why I still think they are a good idea.

So I think more the point of having the list of children known to be in school, so the normal register. I'm not suggesting a separate specific on for "enter emergency here". What I am trying to understand is, is the general feeling that children should not be accounted for in the event of an emergency, and just let the fire brigade come and search the building for anyone. That is where the argument seems to have gotten to... To be clear, not a separate list but some way to account for evacuated and or missing children (and staff let's not forget!)

:-D And don't get me wrong, while I disagree with that I agree with your points that lists etc can be fraught with issues and inaccuracies. Regardless of agreement, I wonder if any schools are brave enough not to have a fire list? Or speak up if they don't now?

So... Why does every school have a list in case of fire? Fire register perhaps not the best phrase... granted! I'm amused that no one will commit to say 'No, schools should not have a fire list/register' yet is the jist of the argument...

Yes, this is the third time you have quoted the link, I think we have all got the message now. I wonder if the other listed MIS' from the earlier list also meet these capabilities? Are all NIST principles tested before the product is listed on the GovStore? I'm trying to get a sense of the authority pushing this to meet the NIST criteria. I wouldn't want to see it being an arbirarty test chosen by GovStore or whoever. Who says Resource Pooling makes a product 'cloud'? What makes that a correct criteria compared to another group of industry experts say something else. My point is GovStore has adopted a definition of 'cloud', a subject notoriously fluffy and ambiguous. I'm not arguing with the definitions or those that have assigned them, I want to be able to trust they are fit for purpose.

Just to be clear, you would recommend schools don't have a fire register? Apologies this part is off topic slightly, I am genuinely interested in the views from schools. I've never been involved in policy or practice for fire evac in schools so learning here too. I just cannot imagine where a school wouldn't have drills or real fire evacs without a list of some description.

Not in the slightest, but still missing the point it isn't just a list for the fire service. This is a list to potentially enable you to act or be aware of a situation. Yes I agree Matt don't buy a solution just for this one thing but if it is included in a solution you have already then great. And yet no one has responded to the question: should there be a list, given the points made...?

My point still stands... are we saying don't bother with a fire register? Or more appropriately will anyone actually take a stand on that? This isn't about making the firefighter's lives easier (as it doesn't), but about school procedure. About what can be done in certain situations. I will admit I don't know the guidelines, but if fire is reported in building a, child is believed to be in building b, and fire service is delayed, is the guidance to leave the child and not re-enter the building? What about very small children, or disabled? I don't know, but I don't believe any school would commit to saying 'we won't bother having a fire register because it is not useful'...

Hope that isn't a suggestion to not bother having a fire register at all... :/

Well now, nothing like a comment like that to reopen the big debate!! @Bromcom-PR No, I'm sorry, but they are offering facility for SIMS (albeit you have to have an additional SIMS licence too) as part of the package... You cannot just buy hosting and not use SIMS as part of that offer. I think the wording misinterpretation is in the fact you have to still pay for SIMS too, that is a little bit devious. You would not buy this unless you intend to use SIMS in the (fake) cloud. Perhaps this is offering facility to enable SIMS to be used in the (fake) cloud... perhaps this is the fine line GovStore have not crossed. Either way, it is there and I fail to see how drawing attention that it is not a cloud product (yet for all intent and purpose is being offered as one) makes any difference?

Have you looked at Groupcall Emerge (or similar) that has been doing this for years? It takes an offline copy of the data so internet connection is not needed. For balance, there are other products that can do essentially the same. You really don't want to be in the paper printout routine, it only take one time for printer to jam/out of ink/ forget to do it... Plus think of the waste! I'm not sure but possibly the new SIMS teacher app might be able to do this (if not, @PhilNeal should make it happen!)

Ummmm... so how do you explain SIMS being on CloudStore?

If there is no need for timetables or exams, perhaps have a look at @scholarpack they do target primary schools but may have all the needs from above adequate to the school. Schoolbase might also be worth a look, they are a smaller organisation but do not know their pricing. Sorry to do this mods, but worth having a look at the suppliers who have replied so far to the MIS Survey, each response (Advanced Learning, ScholarPack, Schoolbase, Schoolpod, Plus4Schools) have indicated what sectors they target or are available for. What is the MIS Survey? | Eduware Consulting

Primary or Secondary?

Oh yes I agree with that I would like to see a world where data flows freely as schools choose one system over another. Think we are a few years away from that...

@CAM there are a lot of subjectives in that statement there mate. Just because in your experience assessment information might be available elsewhere because teachers export it (which technically is against the ethos of the central MIS!) doesn't mean that that is policy for all Capita customers. Assessment information to some schools might be critical (Independent schools for example would value this over attendance and behaviour!). Same with admissions, in fact I would argue for a private school, future intake (so next years money) is as important as the current on roll kids data. Without that and a way to contact those prospects, the school would go under! Ok Ok extreme I know but I don't think there can be any hard and fast rules about what data is and isn't important for the entire population.