Progresso or SIMS?

[Achandler]

Surely the biggest issue with "cloud" solutions is simply, no Internet access for whatever reason, means no MIS. There are a lot of schools out there whose Internet access can be flaky at times, if you can't for example do an electronic register in the morning or you cannot find a pupil because you can't get access to his timetable so you have to go room by room, then I see it as a huge issue and entirely relevant.

 

I know all IT systems can fail at anytime, the problem is the Internet often fails more often then anything else and is usually out of IT staff hands when it does.

[CAM]

In an ideal world yes, an LA would support any MIS in the world for any school that subscribes to it's support services. In reality they have staffing and budget limitations too so they may offer support only one or two systems and say to any school that picks something different that they will have to go to the MIS company directly.

[CyberNerd]

In an ideal world yes, an LA would support any MIS in the world for any school that subscribes to it's support services. In reality they have staffing and budget limitations too so they may offer support only one or two systems and say to any school that picks something different that they will have to go to the MIS company directly.

 

In reality the LA are usually too far into the pockets of the vendor.

 

Surely the biggest issue with "cloud" solutions is simply, no Internet access for whatever reason, means no MIS. There are a lot of schools out there whose Internet access can be flaky at times, if you can't for example do an electronic register in the morning or you cannot find a pupil because you can't get access to his timetable so you have to go room by room, then I see it as a huge issue and entirely relevant.

 

I think that the majority of schools already rely so heavily on the internet for teaching and learning as well as administrative tasks that having a fully redundant leased line is a number one priority.

Certainly for us a failover connection backed up by SLA is one of the things we are happy to throw money at (although getting this was actually cheaper than the LA connection that didn't have an SLA or redundant link ?!!?!)

[Achandler]

We have a leased line and an ADSL fail-over, but I know only halve the local schools have this setup, because we left the LA for out leased line.

 

Either way, you can teach without the Internet and do most admin tasks without the Internet. Seems that putting one of the legal requirements the school has on a single point of failure (in a lot of cases) is an odd idea, if the school has sufficient Internet provision then maybe it is a good idea.

 

Another thing I wonder about is, what happens if an update breaks a Progresso installation, and Serco install it on a cluster at a time for example, seems like it could cause a mass problem. I don't mean to cause offense but everywhere software company produces a good few duff updates, any company that claims otherwise is lying. I think I should also make it clear that we have a web based MIS but ours is hosted internally because I believed in school access to the MIS was the main requirement and should we have a problem with our leased line/ firewall/ filtering etc we could still operate as a school. But this was my opinion at the time.

[Bromcom_John]

Either way, you can teach without the Internet and do most admin tasks without the Internet. Seems that putting one of the legal requirements the school has on a single point of failure (in a lot of cases) is an odd idea, if the school has sufficient Internet provision then maybe it is a good idea.

 

Not wishing to hijack the thread off into a direction the Op hadn't intended but, in these instances then the cloud system had better not rely on a single point of access for that data.

If the school want additional redundancy then it can be easily provided with a cloud system to ensure that any and all "legal" data collection requirements are provided.

 

Essentially with the correct service setup a cloud installation is no less prone to failure than a locally hosted system. In fact the argument could be made that a cloud system is, by its very nature, more robust as it has a stronger tech backbone (assuming a professionally hosted data center), superior infrastructure (economies of scale providing tech use that asingle user school would otherwise have no access too) and greater degree of communication flexibility (Web enabled out of the box so to speak).

 

That being said we (Bromcom) would never advise a school to take a cloud solution if they did not have the appropriate interent provision to cope in the first place. As a Cloud advocate we'd be cutting our own throat to do so.

It'd be like advising a school to use a locally hosted solution when their only available server was a Pentium 2 with 1024mb of RAM.

That said the availability of reliable, fast and above all robust internet provision is starting to become ubiquitous.

 

John

 

ps. Not that I expect my word to be taken on this but in defense of mariefolan, they are a 100% genuine, happy (If somewhat inexperienced in forum ettiquette) Bromcom user. I can't give any details obviouusly but if they were bogus then the mods would have excised her post by now.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Bromcom_John

[michael2k6]

Not wishing to hijack the thread off into a direction the Op hadn't intended but, in these instances then the cloud system had better not rely on a single point of access for that data.

If the school want additional redundancy then it can be easily provided with a cloud system to ensure that any and all "legal" data collection requirements are provided.

 

Essentially with the correct service setup a cloud installation is no less prone to failure than a locally hosted system. In fact the argument could be made that a cloud system is, by its very nature, more robust as it has a stronger tech backbone (assuming a professionally hosted data center), superior infrastructure (economies of scale providing tech use that asingle user school would otherwise have no access too) and greater degree of communication flexibility (Web enabled out of the box so to speak).

 

That being said we (Bromcom) would never advise a school to take a cloud solution if they did not have the appropriate interent provision to cope in the first place. As a Cloud advocate we'd be cutting our own throat to do so.

It'd be like advising a school to use a locally hosted solution when their only available server was a Pentium 2 with 1024mb of RAM.

That said the availability of reliable, fast and above all robust internet provision is starting to become ubiquitous.

 

John

 

ps. Not that I expect my word to be taken on this but in defense of mariefolan, they are a 100% genuine, happy (If somewhat inexperienced in forum ettiquette) Bromcom user. I can't give any details obviouusly but if they were bogus then the mods would have excised her post by now.

 

I completely agree with John's post, and the previous one. I never said the internet connection shouldn't be taken into account, it wasn't mentioned in the original post I commented on. As Cybernerd said though, most establishments now have a redundant connecton and we're seeing more and more move away from LA lines and leasing their own lines with redundancy and a good SLA.

Also, don't forget things like 3g connections, and soon 4g connections - how many people in school have a phone or a tablet they can use? Some schools, granted, will be in areas that don't have good connections of that type... it's like I said, what suits one establishment may not suit the next. Just as you said about not advising people to host it locally if they don't have the resource to cope with it or the funds to improve.

 

In terms of 'duff' updates etc, in a locally hosted solution, you may or may not have put that version on yet. As upgrades are released for census purposes, it's likely you'd have installed it, or put it on a standalone and ended up doing everything twice. When a fix comes out you then have to implement it. In a hosted environment, the problem is likely to be found and resolved much quicker, and the fix is done once by the vendor rather than a thousand times by the schools. Everything can happen much, much faster.

 

As we both said, let's not turn it into a hosted vs local solution, we've all agreed that at the moment, certainly, it depends completly on the establishment and what is most appropriate, taking into account all the variables.

[NewOrder]

Recently came in contact with 5 Free Schools 1 Bromcom, 2 Progresso and 2 hosted sims. All moving from on premise servers

[vikpaw]

With regards the issue of introducing yourself before posting, it's not a rule, but is appreciated. If you have issue with anyone that posts, then please report the post and we'll deal with it, no need to stray off topic. In this instance the account is legit, and all views are welcome here - aren't they?

 

With regards SIMS vs Progresso , for all SIMS's faults, i don't think Progresso is established enough or tested enough in the field yet to be worth the punt, but i also haven't researched it all that much either. I do like the idea of having access to the underlying SQL.

 

One analysis tool i didn't see mentioned was Discover which is a free module in SIMS which people are finding very useful. Though similar i think could be achieved in new versions of SQL using their business information analysis stuff or whatever it's called.

 

Just to throw some spin on the local v hosted debate : we have really shoddy internet connection here. It usually works, but even with failover, sometimes, both go down or for some other technical reason neither are available. MIS unavailability for us is unacceptable, so for any solution i'd be looking at local hosting with a remote hosted backup / synchronised cluster. I know this would add a great deal of cost to some solutions out there, but has anyone considered it?

 

The thinking being that on site if the network is up it's works, with all the benefits of browser based access. If for whatever reason there are connectivity issues, external access can be achieved from home, abroad, etc or using other alternate internet access, whilst on site access is unaffected. I feel this is more useful now where your system is most likely tightly integrated with some form of VLE where you want to provide external access anyway. I think i'd prefer to have a failover on the MIS/VLE rather than failover internet which for us, here, seems not to be that much help. I suppose it really depends on when it goes down and how long for.

[SYNACK]

In terms of 'duff' updates etc, in a locally hosted solution, you may or may not have put that version on yet. As upgrades are released for census purposes, it's likely you'd have installed it, or put it on a standalone and ended up doing everything twice. When a fix comes out you then have to implement it. In a hosted environment, the problem is likely to be found and resolved much quicker, and the fix is done once by the vendor rather than a thousand times by the schools. Everything can happen much, much faster.

 

In practice this becomes much more tricky when the hosted provider isolates users from the updates, limits and configures services to keep the schools dependant.

[alttab]

With regards the issue of introducing yourself before posting, it's not a rule, but is appreciated. If you have issue with anyone that posts, then please report the post and we'll deal with it, no need to stray off topic. In this instance the account is legit, and all views are welcome here - aren't they?

 

With regards SIMS vs Progresso , for all SIMS's faults, i don't think Progresso is established enough or tested enough in the field yet to be worth the punt, but i also haven't researched it all that much either. I do like the idea of having access to the underlying SQL.

 

One analysis tool i didn't see mentioned was Discover which is a free module in SIMS which people are finding very useful. Though similar i think could be achieved in new versions of SQL using their business information analysis stuff or whatever it's called.

 

Just to throw some spin on the local v hosted debate : we have really shoddy internet connection here. It usually works, but even with failover, sometimes, both go down or for some other technical reason neither are available. MIS unavailability for us is unacceptable, so for any solution i'd be looking at local hosting with a remote hosted backup / synchronised cluster. I know this would add a great deal of cost to some solutions out there, but has anyone considered it?

 

The thinking being that on site if the network is up it's works, with all the benefits of browser based access. If for whatever reason there are connectivity issues, external access can be achieved from home, abroad, etc or using other alternate internet access, whilst on site access is unaffected. I feel this is more useful now where your system is most likely tightly integrated with some form of VLE where you want to provide external access anyway. I think i'd prefer to have a failover on the MIS/VLE rather than failover internet which for us, here, seems not to be that much help. I suppose it really depends on when it goes down and how long for.

 

i think that type of anywhere, anytime access is the point of going with a cloud based solution. It's surely more cost effective than LEAs offering wide area clustering. I'm not sure LEAs are geared to going down that kind of route anyway nowadays of replicating MIS instances. IF a school have a couple of separate sites they can probably do something off their own backs, and the issue of a cloud based MIS not being tested in the field is a valid one but for quite a while now business critical apps for small, medium and large companies have been shifted to remote datacenters and/or the cloud, and i don't really see the distinction from an availability/performance point of view...the only difference is who's ultimately responsible for hosting the data and ensuring uptime.

 

, obviously nothing beats local access but then locally hosting stuff in every satellite office or department didn't make much sense for businesses and councils. A lot of schools are still large enough and have enough staff needing to manipulate data that they can justify it, but for how much longer. It'll be a while before 100meg+ speeds and bonded ADSL backup become a commodity for most locations and cloud can do it at a far lower annual cost. Then again a lot will depend on early adopters experiences in the first few years of cloud MIS, as to whether they continue and others follow, or they go back to a locally hosted solution. I think it'll be good enough for more and more schools, it's just that SIMs has such a large market share that it doesn't necessarily need to feel threatened by cloud based MIS alternatives. Decision makers in schools will look at much more than how much they can save when it comes to MIS, other elements of ICT procurement and they focus squarely on the bottom line...MIS is a different beast

[alttab]

In practice this becomes much more tricky when the hosted provider isolates users from the updates, limits and configures services to keep the schools dependant.

 

i'm not sure i understand this point. The hosting provider is doing the updates so that the user doesn't have to, and so that it doesn't need to be done a thousand times across a thousands schools in a region.

[SYNACK]

i'm not sure i understand this point. The hosting provider is doing the updates so that the user doesn't have to, and so that it doesn't need to be done a thousand times across a thousands schools in a region.

 

We have a situation here where the cloud provider does not apply the updates available in a timely fashion meaning that users with local installs get fixes long before their cloud chained counterparts. The cloud makes you rely fully on the provider for everything, if they are lapse you are stuffed. This does happen and you get to find out about it once all your data is helpfully stuck in non-exportable or transferable cloud land.

[alttab]

We have a situation here where the cloud provider does not apply the updates available in a timely fashion meaning that users with local installs get fixes long before their cloud chained counterparts. The cloud makes you rely fully on the provider for everything, if they are lapse you are stuffed. This does happen and you get to find out about it once all your data is helpfully stuck in non-exportable or transferable cloud land.

 

fair enough, but with something like progresso your not really dealing with a locally install version and a centrally hosted cloud version. Schools are either in the facility camp or the one's that are now going live with progresso. If i was an MIS provider, i'd want to focus my efforts in the future on the platform that i wanted customers to eventually move to - whether that was a newer edition of a locally install product or a new cloud based offering doesn't matter, providers all have a roadmap for their product lines...clearly as an MIS provider you have to expect to support the differing products for quite some time, but if the hope is to move people onto the newer platform then they would be wise to ensure they get some good testominals rather than risk treating them as second class citizens because they represent a smaller proportion of their customer base.

 

i personally think it's a very ambitious move, but as it's not about to discontinue the locally installed product it's a manageable undertaking. i think clearly there's a lot of potential for wins from the new schools and academies being created all over the place, they may be looking at a pure cloud-based, presumably from the ground up system, with someone else maintaining the DB instances, the updates, the power and cooling is a real selling point if they don't have the onsite resources, another plus if cloud can shave several k's off the alternative locally installed alternatives. For some of the sizes of these free schools and academies on paper it makes a lot of sense. Given their size you wouldn't necessarily expect them to want to go to the trouble of hosting their own Exchange 2010 infrastructure, so why should MIS be any different.

 

Obviously MIS in the cloud is not all a bed of roses, but then it's a case of whether you can work with the downsides. I find it a bit odd when people say they can't tolerate any performance issues or downtime with their MIS, when businesses have to deal with performance and availability issues for datacenter hosted web apps that are far more real world business critical.

[anandp]

Its only a few years before Capita are ready to release their cloud-based MIS product anyway, so in a way, everyone will be moving in that direction in the next 5 years or so anyway. Isn't it better to make the change now and be ahead of the pack with regards to portability, cost savings and additional functionality that could make tasks easier?

[matt40k]

Perhaps, just waiting for someone to hack the Amazon cloud

[zag]

If I had the choice I would choose Progresso now due to its web platform and parent capabilities.

 

Its surely the future....

 

Sims is fine though, but so slow to adapt (probably due to its large userbase).

Edited September 4, 2012 by zag

[vikpaw]

If I had the choice I would choose Progresso now due to its web platform and parent capabilities.

 

Its surely the future....

 

Sims is fine though, but so slow to adapt (probably due to its large userbase).

 

Have you looked at Bromcom or Aspen? Both been doing it for longer.

[GREED]

Definitely look at user base, just because something is now on the web doesn't mean it is a good solution. Aspen has thousands of schools and millions of students... something must be right there

[anandp]

Definitely look at user base, just because something is now on the web doesn't mean it is a good solution. Aspen has thousands of schools and millions of students... something must be right there

 

There's also Wautton Samuel (more for primaries I think), RM and Pearson. Does anyone use these MIS alternatives?

[GREED]

They do yes. I believe Wautton Samuel is Scholarpack... Someone can confirm that. All have a collection of schools that are customers, not as big as Secro or SIMS (or Aspen worldwide!)

[vikpaw]

Nope, it's PASAPP, histon house is scholarpack : http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/76154-something-keep-eye-dfe-2.html#post808644

[ntm1275]

There's also Wautton Samuel (more for primaries I think), RM and Pearson. Does anyone use these MIS alternatives?

 

Our LA has been using RM's Integris G2/S2 for the last 4 and a half years, and from an LA point of view, this has been the best thing we ever did as far as cost savings on support and maintenance is concerned

 

It is installed in our LA data centre, with the hardware maintained by our corporate IT Dept and the software maintained by RM

 

When there is an update to the MIS, RM VPN in to our data centre and install the update once, which covers every single school

 

There is no need for separate MIS servers in schools with the associated IT staff visiting to update/configure etc

 

Our schools love the web based interface they get via all the popular browsers, and they know that they don't have to maintain backups of the data or deal with any of the technical issues associated with it

 

It means that we just need one MIS support person (who also has 'live' access to every school), and the IT Dept just fit in any hardware work that needs doing in with their normal everyday work

 

As an LA, it saves us tens of thousand of pounds every year, and our schools are more than happy to just let the LA and RM deal with the technical side of things

 

For loss of internet access issues, our Secondary schools have a redundant line which they can switch to if the need arises, but the Primary schools just use a single line

If the last 4 and a half years, we have had certain Primary school loose their internet access for a few hours, but this has never caused any real hardship for them

 

To tell you the truth, I have been surprised how robust the internet connections have been, with less than 10 Primary schools loosing internet access in 4 and a half years

 

The only thing that may cause concern for some people is that schools need a connection of 2Mbit or more for a comfortable experience

Below that, there may be issues with the speed that the system runs, but it is by no means unbearable and a school on a half a meg connection is still usable, but may take a couple of extra seconds to display the pages

 

Since switching to fully web based product, we as an LA will never go back to a client based MIS again

 

We will always choose a fully web based MIS whether it remains with RM, or the other main suppliers like Bromcom, ASPEN, ScholarPack, Fronter or Progresso etc

Edited September 5, 2012 by ntm1275

[CyberNerd]

@ntm1275 Sounds like a fantastic success story.

One of the things we really struggle with SIMS is the constant spending with Microsoft to keep the SIMS running. Could you tell me if Integris is as you say "fully web based" as in it will run on any modern browser and operating system - or is there still a cost tie-in with MS products?

[GREED]

Does is also allow you to choose the back end db, so that you don't have to fork out for SQL (and use mySQL instead)?

[ntm1275]

Please excuse me, my previous post was not supposed to be from and RM fan point view, it was more about the virtues of a fully web based system

I was only giving our LA's view from our own RM experience

I'm sure the experience would have been similar with any of the other fully web based MIS systems

 

@ntm1275 Sounds like a fantastic success story.

One of the things we really struggle with SIMS is the constant spending with Microsoft to keep the SIMS running. Could you tell me if Integris is as you say "fully web based" as in it will run on any modern browser and operating system - or is there still a cost tie-in with MS products?

Yes it is fully web based, and can be accessed with all the major browsers like IE, Firefox, Chrome and Safari etc

 

Does is also allow you to choose the back end db, so that you don't have to fork out for SQL (and use mySQL instead)?

I know our runs on SQL, but our IT Dept appear to have a contract with Microsoft, so this might be why we went down this route (all workstation, servers etc are all Microsoft OS's, with Microsoft Office etc, etc, etc)

As for the question whether it will run with mySQL or other back end db, that is a question I don't know the answer to I'm afraid, as that side of things were just 'sorted' by the IT Dept and RM

Edited September 6, 2012 by ntm1275