Pricing from kcom

[GrumbleDook]

IIRC (and you can always just ask Capita) the cost per-user for that year is agreed at the start of the contract ... so any changes (increases / decreases) are just taken on the chin on both sides. I am sure that if you have a sudden need to drastically increase the number of accounts for certain things (e.g. another school closes and you take on staff and children) I am sure that things can be discussed ... most providers of services do this. We had it in Corby with a VLE/Mail system when Our Lady & Pope John closed and we ended up with nearly 100 extra kids across various years. It is not a new issue and most folk are flexible if you ask. If a services provider / supplier had to put examples in of every time they might be flexible then it would be a massive document ...

 

To some extent you ask a question to see how flexible they are and then hope they will be flexible on everything ... or you just ask lots of examples.

 

As for OpenHive ... I am not trying to sell the product (as the LA do not recommend and sit on the fence a heck of a lot) it is worth saying that it is a bit different to what is there atm. Things like AD integration for SSO, etc are their on the Capita farm whereas they are not on the EMBC farm ... Those of CPanel are using the OpenHive web hosting already, and Mail Marshall is also the Capita offering already too. In general, there is the same functionality as before on each service ... default levels on NetSweeper or take on Local Control and have either tied in with SUMS for Portal Controlled Filtering ... Mail Marshall access ... email is either Exchange based (as it is now) or Live@Edu with account integration to the central IdP (for provision and management) as a change ... if you are still on PLESK you can move over to CPanel or have it lifted ask shifted to another PLESK build instead ...

 

So lots of the same. Firewall rules and NAT the same, DNS the same ... as much or as little as you want the same.

 

And this is before you mix and match with in-house services, other folk on the framework (whether RM or even Unified Comms from Virgin) or bits not on the framework whether your VLE, Google Apps, Live@Edu, WAN access to your Academy Group ...

 

Now the people who are going to do a lot of mixing and matching are those who are more technically able. If a school does not have that in house then they should be buying the relevant level of support and advice in. If they cut corners on connections and services to save money and do the same on IT Support ... then there is little which we can do ... but that is a discussion for another day ... probably in a pub somewhere.

[TheCrust]

Speaking of services Tony, could you shed any light on an answer to the question "Can I just take the connectivity and completely forego the services?"

 

We host a lot of our own internally already - for instance, we already have secondary filters for both internet and email to pick up what EMBC miss, we host our own VLE and website - yet nobody at our LA seems to want to stump up an answer to the question when asked.

 

Could we just take a circuit from KCOM straight into the core and give Capita and RM a polite refusal or is there an absolute minimum of stuff we need to contract in to?

[Gibson335]

Per user pricing is used by a number of firms ... and the idea is based on the ability to pay as well as how heavily you will use a service. This model is being used by suppliers both on and off the emPSN framework. Some services are easy enough to work out based on the size of the school (basically banding things together) or a flat fee per school. Per user is done with VLEs, filtering products, etc ... and a direct comparison would be cloud-based services for business from Google and MS ... you pay per account there too. We keep saying that schools are like businesses ...

 

 

You may not mean it to but this comes across as justifying for the sake of it. Why compare it to other things such as VLE - I've contacted 8 companies so far about ISP and Capita are the only ones to have a per user price. It's other ISP services we should be comparing it to, surely? As for your comment in another post - 'you could just ask Capita - that's all very well providing you can get a complete answer - I got no answer to my e-mail request and a subsequent call made it clear about setting the figure for the year, but when I asked what happened if you went for a 3 year contract I got told they'd have to check and would get back...though I'm still waiting. As for the setup costs, I agree with synaesthesia in that if it's different enough to warrant setup costs it should not be suggested that it's pretty much the same facilty in all but name. I think sometimes you try to make a case for things being much simpler than they actually are, especially for those schools who have little or no on-site expertise or even someone who can spare the time to do all this. I do have the time - it's my job - but if I find the process frustrating and a little opaque at times, then I can only imagine how some people are finding it.

[synaesthesia]

Cheers Tony, that clears it up a bit. I keep being asked about the simplist way forward so at least have something to go on. Capita aren't being too forthcoming with information every time I press them though, perhaps I need to speak to the right person

[synaesthesia]

So, has anyone had their pricing as today is the red letter day for Kcom?

[sparkeh]

So, has anyone had their pricing as today is the red letter day for Kcom?

*tumbleweed*

*A desolate bell tolls in the distance*

 

All quite here.

[camel]

Nothing yet! Are they trying to alienate schools?! I have quotes from other suppliers who are providing comprehensive solutions and open pricing...

[sparkeh]

Nothing yet! Are they trying to alienate schools?! I have quotes from other suppliers who are providing comprehensive solutions and open pricing...

Agreed. When SMT see suppliers falling over themselves to get our business its hard to recommend one that you can't get a (correct) price out of :/

[kaphc]

Nothing yet! Are they trying to alienate schools?! I have quotes from other suppliers who are providing comprehensive solutions and open pricing...

 

With the lack of pricing from kcom, other solutions are starting to become more interesting. What other suppliers have you gone to if you don't mind me asking?

[camel]

With the lack of pricing from kcom, other solutions are starting to become more interesting. What other suppliers have you gone to if you don't mind me asking?

 

for connectivity it is all off empsn of course.

 

I've looked at Schoolsbroadband, VirginMedia, Exa-Networks, RM, Capita and smoothwall.

 

Schoolsbroadband from TalkStraight will do 8 IP addresses, included on-site engineer installation, VPNs, unlimited email accounts, email span filtering, hardware warranty of router, firewall for contract duration, website hosting, web filtering AD integration with Fortinet appliance, all for a nice sum. 3yr contract, no installation charge, 40Mb on 100Mb bearer.

 

VirginMedia will do a fully managed connection with firewall (juniper appliance) and filtering for a modest install charge and annual fee. With 2-5 schools on-board, no install fee and lower annual charge, 6+ schools no fee and even lower annual charge. No email or web hosting. All prices for a 100Mb bandwidth on 100Mb bearer.

 

Exa didn't do so well on price for a 30Mb connection no web hosting or emails. Nowhere near the competition and installation was nearly £3.4k (worst of the quotes, though nothing firm from RM)

 

I've looked at smoothwall for filtering, nice product, but to get any kind of discount they want a full 3yrs upfront (not cheap), other solutions will offer discounts and annual payment schedule!

 

RM were considered for about 1/2 second . their connectivity deal for leased lines is very tempting that I imagine each school has a quote for. smartcache2 (with all of the gubbins, safetynet universal, smart tracker) was looked at but on going issues with windows 7 and AD integration was a put off. also looked into their web hosting (linux or windows, very competative compared to Capita) easymail. Looks a very good offer, if I didn't have issues with the company.

 

Capita, not connectivity, but is everything else. Everyone can see their prices for day1 bundels now. Enough said.

 

Just to point out, migration is not included in the above options I have referenced where Capita have included setup and migration fees. Though the above quotes start out with their own options from default and configure as much as possible to suit our needs.

[kaphc]

Thanks, this gives me some options.

 

Incidentally, our quote from kcom has arrived in the last hour - emailed to the headteacher.

[synaesthesia]

So far Schools Broadband have been the people here ticking more boxes than anyone else with competitive pricing and happiness to show anything or give any details about anything. The IP address number is figurative - they will go higher (relented to our request for 16 with ease) as long as they can properly justify the need to RIPE.

RM are there for pricing but SB for us is the big stick-out; mostly because of the choice of filtering/safety system and the included VPN system.

[synaesthesia]

Just had official quote in from Kcom. Chins have hit the floor and we can't pick them up again.

We've had some expensive quotes in as well as the reasonable ones. Even their price "if we go in with a load of other schools" is not competitive. That's without the filtering!

[sparkeh]

Ok quote for one school is in!

 

Continuity price has dropped a fair bit but the transitional price is under half the current cost for 4mb -> 10mb increase.

[Gibson335]

Just had official quote in from Kcom. Chins have hit the floor and we can't pick them up again.

We've had some expensive quotes in as well as the reasonable ones. Even their price "if we go in with a load of other schools" is not competitive. That's without the filtering!

 

Surprising. The one we have, again 'if the following schools sign up' was pretty competitive.

[Gibson335]

So far Schools Broadband have been the people here ticking more boxes than anyone else with competitive pricing and happiness to show anything or give any details about anything. The IP address number is figurative - they will go higher (relented to our request for 16 with ease) as long as they can properly justify the need to RIPE.

RM are there for pricing but SB for us is the big stick-out; mostly because of the choice of filtering/safety system and the included VPN system.

Just shows...for us they would be more expensive than the Capita/KCOM solution, and even if they were close or slightly better, the notion of a smoother transition and less disruption is something worth paying a slight premium for - for us anyway.

[TheCrust]

Surprising. The one we have, again 'if the following schools sign up' was pretty competitive.

 

As was ours.

[Gibson335]

Had to laugh - the contact at KCOM is off until next week. He timed his holiday just right :-)

[synaesthesia]

TonyJF: is that secondary or primary? I've just requested copies of the quotes for my primaries and expect those to be far more competitive.

Schools Broadband here though are being aggressive with clustered options; i.e. it's very likely that several groups of 4/5 schools are going in which is keeping costs down nicely. Whether they remain competitive after 3 years is yet to be seen but if not, that's plenty of time to sort something else out.

For instance, as a very rough guide, kcoms connectivity here *with* their "transformative deal" (what a crap marketing name!) would be just about 13.5k. Add in Capita's Openhive stuff, it would be circa £15.5k-16k depending on intake.

 

For SB, same speed, better (IMO) security setup, VPN as an included option but otherwise pretty like for like is about £3k less a year. It's not as competitive as RM but we need to get what is best for the school, and here we don't think RM can do that. This is working on the cluster deal things

It works out a shade under 12k saving over 3 years if we avoid Kcom.

 

For primaries, SB are also doing a free transition to FTTC when it's available (obviously that'll only matter where they don't already have it) which will make a huge difference too. 1mbit is not good for update downloads, it's quicker to drive the 16 mile round trip to download it at my school!

 

 

(NB : Please note all the above prices are very rough and I won't be divulging exact numbers, we'd probably be shot. Plus of course different technologies, different existing provisions , location etc will have large impact on pricing between providers)

Edited March 15, 2012 by synaesthesia

[Gibson335]

TonyJF: is that secondary or primary? I've just requested copies of the quotes for my primaries and expect those to be far more competitive.

Schools Broadband here though are being aggressive with clustered options; i.e. it's very likely that several groups of 4/5 schools are going in which is keeping costs down nicely. Whether they remain competitive after 3 years is yet to be seen but if not, that's plenty of time to sort something else out.

For instance, as a very rough guide, kcoms connectivity here *with* their "transformative deal" (what a crap marketing name!) would be just about 13.5k. Add in Capita's Openhive stuff, it would be circa £15.5k-16k depending on intake.

 

For SB, same speed, better (IMO) security setup, VPN as an included option but otherwise pretty like for like is about £3k less a year. It's not as competitive as RM but we need to get what is best for the school, and here we don't think RM can do that. This is working on the cluster deal things

It works out a shade under 12k saving over 3 years if we avoid Kcom.

 

For primaries, SB are also doing a free transition to FTTC when it's available (obviously that'll only matter where they don't already have it) which will make a huge difference too. 1mbit is not good for update downloads, it's quicker to drive the 16 mile round trip to download it at my school!

 

Secondary. Our 100mbps connection price from KCOM has come in at under £9,500 - provided the relevant schools sign up.

 

I have to be honest in admitting that if all other things are equal, I'm in favour of maintaining the status quo - sometimes better the devil you know, and I'd rather not go through a change in ISP every 3-4 years, either.

 

I guess we each have our different priorities.

[synaesthesia]

If ours was near 9500 we'd be seriously considering it for the same reason. In fact, my NM just said we'd snap their arm off. 12k difference over 3 years though - that's a definite no go.

Could I be really cheeky and ask you what area you are? 4k difference is a HELL of a lot per year so I wonder if they've cocked something up.

 

We're also working on *best case scenario* - it's extremely unlikely neighbouring schools will be going with kcom therefore it's likely we can add another 1.5k to our price.

 

Also I should be quick to point out, we're not against the service provided by kcom/embc up until now, it's been really rather good.

Edited March 15, 2012 by synaesthesia

[Gibson335]

If ours was near 9500 we'd be seriously considering it for the same reason. In fact, my NM just said we'd snap their arm off. 12k difference over 3 years though - that's a definite no go.

Could I be really cheeky and ask you what area you are? 4k difference is a HELL of a lot per year so I wonder if they've cocked something up.

 

We're also working on *best case scenario* - it's extremely unlikely neighbouring schools will be going with kcom therefore it's likely we can add another 1.5k to our price.

 

Also I should be quick to point out, we're not against the service provided by kcom/embc up until now, it's been really rather good.

 

We're in south Leics, so I'd guess the price difference is partially down to the exchanges. I'm hopeful now that the other schools will look at this seriously given that price, but of course it also depends on whether they go for the Capita/KCOM package or the KCOM/RM package as to where their overall costs end up. It's a palaver, but then Broadband has become such a significant part of the school needs, it requires a lot of close attention.

[synaesthesia]

Indeed it does. The bit that annoys me is that kcom withdrew quotes/held back on providing prices as they were examining other provider's costs. We assumed therefore they'd come back more competitive.

Just waiting to hear back from friends at neighbouring schools to see if they've had the same prices; if so, they won't be getting into many Northants schools. Shame really, as you said about continuity - that's peace of mind you can't get elsewhere.

[Gibson335]

Continuity, at least in my view, is worth a premium, but from what you're saying they've not managed to get their prices down where you are in the way they've managed to for us, so those additional costs are probably impossible to justify. As you say, shame for those who'd rather stay but are being forced out on costs.

[robk]

Interestingly the costs schools broadband sent me were much higher than rm. My kcom cost actually looks really good in comparison to both. My issue is with the service costs, luckly live@edu and smoothwall are allready in on my site.