ConTheITGuy Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 2 recent threads got me thinking - and rather than trying to decide which thread to join, thought I'd better start a new one. We have started the journey into server based computing and have a small cluster - or rather 2 very small clusters of thin clients running off Terminal Server. They've been in a couple of months and I've hardly had to go down to either at all!! (which is good as they're both at the other side of the school!) Anyway, after that long winded intro I have two questions: Is anyone using NetSupportManager or NetOP (an argument for a previous thread!) or similar on thin clients? We have a very flaky IT suite which I think would benefit from converting to thinstations, but the teacher up there relies on NetOP. Just wondering if that kind of technology works on Terminal Server. Also, I am very interested in Citrix (I know some of you aren't, but I'm hoping the ones who are might answer ) Their licensing looks screwier than M$! But that's probably just because I'm a bit more used to Microsoft. What do I need to get started? Is it just the presentation server and some clients? Or the full access suite? Also which version do people use (Enterprise, Advanced, System)? I know it would appear at the moment that it is not worth spending on Citrix as we don't have that many machines, but it is something that I think is about to grow here quite big and quite fast. Thanks for any help, and thanks Ric for the advice - ages ago! - before I got my first batch! Andy.
ChrisH Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 You only pay for the clients afaik then you can install as many server versions as you want. Your clients have to match the server version your going to use though obviously. Versions like enterprise support load balancing accross the servers unlike the standard edition. Other versions are geared towards better remote access as well as far as I can tell.
Geoff Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 You can cheat with the Load Balancing and use a Linux based IP Load Balancer with direct routing.. http://www.linuxvirtualserver.org/
Ric_ Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 I use Citrix - love it! You need Presentation Server (I use Enterprise Edition for all the bells and whistles like app deployment, etc. - I also plan to use the SNMP stuff to send me messages to brighten my day). You need one Citrix license per concurrent connection. You will also need a TS CAL for each device. NSM will work with thin client (not sure about NetOp) although there is limited use from a management point of view. There's comprehensive instructions for NSM on their website. You should be able to get a Citrix eval license if you sweet talk a Citrix Reseller (e.g. Jo @ Qual on 0117 373 0010).
ConTheITGuy Posted October 17, 2005 Author Posted October 17, 2005 Cheers for that guys, Have not had chance yet - but I could always just try NetOP on TS! Am waiting for a few quotes to come in for Citrix, so we'll see if it's worth pursuing or not. I don't know if it's just Ric's enthusiasm that's given me the bug, but I am quite keen! Andy.
Ric_ Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 @mark: You have to weigh it up. If you have sufficeient moneys for a reasonably sized support team, have a very good network infrastructure (allowing easy ghost/RIS deployments) and can afford to stick to a 3-year replacement policy on all your machines then all is fine with fat clients. If you have a single techie with a limited budget who is trying to manage a flaky network of machine that are up to 6 years old (whilst also having to migrate from NT4 and 9x - RM no less), Citrix is a dream. Your machines can be shite and you can still run all the latest progs (as long as you aren't getting carried away with multimedia). If you then add in the idea of remote access - just give access to your Citrix web front end from the outside world and you can have access to school resources as if you were in the school (theoretically over a 28.8kbps modem too!). This also leverages the TCO of your Citrix licenses as they can be used while the school is closed! Now add in the idea that you can slowly replace your machines with thin client terminals - a fraction oif the price of a PC and they will [theoretically] last forever since there are no moving parts and you're only really processing keystrokes and screen refreshes. Admitedly you will have to replace your servers as needs grow and software requirements increase. However, one server will happily run 25 clients (@ £2500) and the x64 version of Windows and Citrix will supposedly allow for 63% more users! Of course, some machines still need local grunt - video and music editting, etc. For this you just buy your machines as usual and bang the Citrix client on them. Use Citrix for everything but what you need the grunt for. The biggest thing that puts people off is the initial outlay - which, to be fair, isn't that much more than some migration costs for NT4 -> 2003 (especially if you bear in mind how many workstations will need XP Pro licenses and memory upgrades, etc.). Anyway - that's my justification for the wonders of Citrix. I hope it wasn't too one-sided - it's hard not to be when a technology is so wonderful
Geoff Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Oh I dunno, there's ways to make it cheaper. Stop buying Windows desktop PCs and migrate them to Linux instead. Citrix works find under Linux so assuming you have eveything on your terminal servers anyway you lose nothing. But gain big savings on WinXP Pro OS licenses. For bonus points, make your Linux desktop clients diskless and PXE boot them. With no moving parts (assuming you take out all the other drives anyway) and no local software they become very low maintainence. You can recycle a lot of old machines this way and put them back into useful service.
Ric_ Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 You can recycle a lot of old machines this way and put them back into useful service. Already done that! Check out http://thinstation.org
MkII Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Did I step into a party political broadcast here! You can recycle/ use old machines but then they look like s**te and that's how they're regarded/ treated by staff and pupils alike. @Ric - you make remote access using Citrix sound painless - what about the extra server and extra licences for nFuse? - that'd take out my budget for this year alone! + the licencing for those cheap terminals is very expensive- or do Citrix now show mercy to us in education. £120 just for the terminal, PLUS the usual software cost on top of that - it just ain't cheap like you'd expect. I do think Citrix are on top of their game, but having being beaten, bloodied and bruised from the experience, I can't agree that this is a serious contender for schools.
SpuffMonkey Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Mark - apart from the expense - what were the downsides to Citrix then - as I am considering it too - always like to hear the bad with the good
Geoff Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 You can recycle/ use old machines but then they look like s**te and that's how they're regarded/ treated by staff and pupils alike. So buy new cases then.
Ric_ Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 @Mark: NFuse is no more and you get all you need with Enterprise Edition - although you should really get Access Gateway to do it properly. Cost to buy a HP linux thin client and citrix = £170 + £120 + £10 = £300 Cost to buy a HP Windows SFF client = £350 I just hate being proved wrong. You either love it or hate it but IMHO you can't go wrong.
RobC Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 This also leverages the TCO of your Citrix licenses as they can be used while the school is closed! Arggghh! He used the word "Leverage!" Stone him!
Ric_ Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 This also leverages the TCO of your Citrix licenses as they can be used while the school is closed! Arggghh! He used the word "Leverage!" Stone him!I like using management speak - makes me feel all important!
GrumbleDook Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 What about server and infrastructure costs on top of that ... what is the rough break down of server for connections from 400+ clients, what are the network overheads (does it really need for all servers to be hooked up via gig connections), what is performance like over wireless? What Proxy / filtering software works fine with Citrix / Terminal Services? Just a few more questions?
Ric_ Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 @Grumbledook: You can easily get 30 clients onto a dual-processor box with 3GB RAM. Also bear in mind that you probably won't have all 400 clients connected at the same time. All your heavy network traffic travels between servers so they are the only boxes that need gig connections (and they are generally all in the same place so a single gig switch will do). Your clients can use wireless and it's fine as long as they have a connection - like I said, it should work OK over dialup connections (that's what Citrix was origionally designed for after all) and you can even buy wireless thin client terminals if you so wish. As for proxy and filtering software... since this runs on another server in between your network and the outside world, you can use whatever you like. In fact almost all software is OK and with isolation environments in Presentation Server 4, it is like running a single instance of an app anyway.
MkII Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 On your setup Ric [25 users per server - which I agree is about right] - 400 users equates to 16 servers. You update/ replace those how often? At least every 3 years I'd suggest. Plus the Citrix software - not cheap - I worked out with the upgrade advantage it was cheaper to buy again outright in 3 years - Then you've got the clients which cost the same as a PC [as you've said]. Seems like this to me: Y1 - twice the expenditure [servers + clients - brand new throughout] Y4 - same expenditure as vanilla system [just replacing the Citrix servers] Bandwidth is not a problem on Citrix really - but then try the online demo on Citrix.com [where'd that go anyway?] and you'll find it a bit faster than treacle - explain that to me - and surely that should be the best showcase/ best hardware to user setup. Agreed Geoff - buy new cases/ mobo's mice etc - but the idea is to do it cheap - those old AT cases are hard to come by now. With DIDA isn't multimedia with video editing part of the course? People complain on my system if all machines aren't capable of multimedia - even serving CD's or multimedia rich apps is a no-no on a thin client system - you have to run all that on a fat client somehow.
Geoff Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 Agreed Geoff - buy new cases/ mobo's mice etc - but the idea is to do it cheap - those old AT cases are hard to come by now. You can fit an AT style mobo in an ATX case. The screw holes fit. The only issue is the back plate for the onboard peripherals. If you buy a new case it should come with both types. Cheapest ATX case I can find is £16.
MkII Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 @ Geoff: What about the power supply? - the mobo connectors are different - and the power switch is integrated. Cheap cases = problems - spend £40 and you're safe I recon.
Geoff Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 I'm guessing you can't pull the power supply out the old cases and use them in the new? You can get ATX -> AT conversion cables.
ConTheITGuy Posted November 16, 2005 Author Posted November 16, 2005 Well, I've bought some Citrix licenses, set everything up, set up the volume on my Winterms and then realised I'd bought a server with no soundcard - doh! :oops:
Ric_ Posted November 16, 2005 Posted November 16, 2005 Well, I've bought some Citrix licenses, set everything up, set up the volume on my Winterms and then realised I'd bought a server with no soundcard - doh! :oops: Doesn't matter with Citrix - sound just works. RDP still requires a sound card but there is a way around it IIRC.
ConTheITGuy Posted November 16, 2005 Author Posted November 16, 2005 Interesting... will look into that - cheers Ric_ Andy.
ConTheITGuy Posted November 16, 2005 Author Posted November 16, 2005 Got it! Been on that screen about 4 times already today - staring me in the face - duh! Need to find the ICA eqiuivalent of bringing local disk drives to session (for pen drives).
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