WDS vs WAIK vs MDT vs SCCM?

[Sam_Brown]

Quick Intro

I see a lot of talk with all these different deployment tools but I'm finding it tricky to figure out how they relate to one another, which ones supercede others and just in general how they work and what they do.

 

Now I've been in IT for about 18 months now so while I feel I've picked up a hell of a lot in that time I'm still relatively green so forgive me for any inaccuracies I make in this and subsequent posts. Also the more info you guys can give the better for me!

 

WDS, WAIK, MDT and SCCM

Could someone give me a brief run down on each of these and how they work together. What each one does and whether any of them supercede the others? For example do you still need WDS if you have SCCM set up?

 

SPECIFICS I WANT TO DO!

Anyway I'll tell you where we were and where we are now and perhaps you guys could give me an idea on where to move to next.

 

 

GHOST

So in ye olden days we had an old ghost cast server. You'd F12 and PXE boot into RIS (on the same server), select the relevant GHOST boot image with the correct DOS Drivers for the network card then the reset was just the standard connecting to the Ghost Cast Server and capturing \ deploying an image. This worked ok for a while but I decided we should move away from GHOST because it was getting harder to find DOS drivers that worked for newer machines and this led to alot of issues with clients dropping out mid imaging\ not being able to connect in the first place.

 

WDS

So I spend a week or so reading up on WDS. Installed it on a blank 2K8R2 server and configured it. All in all it was pretty easy and took about two hours to get it up and running and capturing images. It seems to me that WDS is pretty much the same as GHOST. Create a base image. PXE boot to the network and then capture it so you can deploy it later on. Immediately though I found it loads better than the previous GHOST server because we had no issues connecting to the WDS server (well apart from one set of laptops but injecting the drivers into the boot image was easy to fix). It was also a lot quicker to capture and deploy and we had no issues with clients dropping out half way through. Also learning to use Sysprep has enabled me to learn about automating certain things with the newly imaged machines such as auto joining the domain (we still put the computer name in manually using minisetup).

 

Can you believe in the olden days we didn't use Sysprep and instead manually connected all imaged computers to the domain and run NEWSID? Madness! I still have nightmares from last summer when I had to image 60 laptops manually one by one and running NEWSID \ Joining The Domain Manually .

 

WHERE DO I WANT TO GO NEXT?

So this is all working out pretty awesome. A lot better than the old Ghost way we did things however it's become obvious that we now have about 8 or 9 different models of PC and Laptops with pretty much exactly the same image and the only difference being they have different hardware and therefore need differing drivers. But it seems stupid having so many images for such a minor change. I've heard about the ability to create hardware independent images. I was wondering how do I go about doing this and what tools do I need? Also something minor but was wondering how to configure naming the computers once they've been imaged. So far the only real intervention we have from starting to image a machine to it being ready is to put in the machine name. What are the best ways to automate naming the computers so the correct computer gets the correct name when it's imaged?

 

AND WHERE I WANT TO BE AFTER THIS?

The next big issue we have is regarding things like Flash and Patches for programs like Seriff and whatnot. At the moment end users have to bring there laptops to us and we log them off, log on as admin and update it for them. This is a pain in the arse . Believe there is a way to use some of the deployment tools to push out updates to client computers but I have no idea how to do it and again what technologies I need to use. Can anyone help? Also I'm interested in making things a bit more Zero Touch. Possibly pushing out deployments from the server instead of going round the rooms.

 

FIN

Whoa... that is one hell of TL;DR right there. Hope some of you guys will be kind enough to give me some help with this! I know I can probably find all this on my own however I really think asking on here is going to give me the direct answers to the questions I have and hopefully some of the more experienced on here can give me some pointers and examples of how they set things up. I find it easier to see how other people have done things and working out how that works opposed to reading through a 400 page book and trying to pick out the bits I need!

[Gatt]

If you have the time and patience, I would thoroughly recommend looking into SCCM..

Its a cracking system and will be a big timesaver once working

[TheScarfedOne]

Likewise... another vote for SCCM here. Please see my blog post series for getting it set up. Also, feel free to PM me if you need any help/advice.

[sukh]

Hi

 

It seems like that you need to use SCCM as Gatt suggested. This will allow you to create you independent hardware images/architecture images as well as deploy applications to machines without interruption to the user. There are major differences between WDS and SCCM. SCCM is more for the enterprise who want more than just deploying the OS to the desktops. If you;re looking for zero touch then this is a must.

 

Creating hardware independent images, deploying applications etc... There are lots of posts within edugeek and sticks that you can read rather than a 400 page document which explains the technologies.

 

I think the next step for you is to actually deploy SCCM and then maybe ask specific questions if you have issues or want to know "how to".

 

Sukh

[Sam_Brown]

So with SCCM I don't need WDS \ WAIK \ MDT and won't need to know about these three?

 

If that is the case is it worth starting on a brand new server with no WDS set up on it?

 

Also would there be any issues with having SCCM on the same server as WSUS?

 

EDIT: As it stands we using Windows XP across our site. We probably won't be moving to 7 until 2012 (possibly a few test work stations this summer). Is this going to screw things up at all as all the guides I have read refer to Windows 7. I was wondering on whether SCCM would work with Windows 7?

Edited March 24, 2011 by Sam_Brown

[sukh]

Hi

 

WAIK/MDT can and is used with SCCM. SCCM supports Windows 7 too. With SCCM you have OSD for OS Deployment. WSUS Integrates with SCCM, WSUS will become Winodws Update Services under SCCM.

 

Sukh

[Gatt]

SCCM R3 pretty much handles everthing on the network here now - OS Deployment of WIndows 7, Software Deployments, WSUS Integration, Reporting

There is also Asset Intelligence and NAP integration though I haven't looked at these two areas in any detail..

 

It took a lot of work to get it right, and I would recommend installing it in Native Mode if you are able to build the needed PKI and Certificates - it'll make life easer and wont cause dupliate clients..

 

I pretty much found http://www.windows-noob.com to be the best source for guides and information for SCCM.

 

As noted above SCCM does need the WAIK and WDS (you may need to reinstall WDS as it needs to be unconfigured - same with WSUS) for OSD..

 

th e other good thing about SCCM is that you can monitor advertisements pretty much live with the System Status tree and usually it tells you where something has failed.

[edutech4schools]

SCCM is probably what you want but I just wanted to point out that all the others can do driver injection even a wim image with my sysprep running from a usb or network point can do this.

[Sam_Brown]

Ah ok.

 

I'll probably start with this then move on to SCCM later when I have the time. What is the best way to inject drivers into a Windows XP image?

 

Oh and could someone tell me how WAIK \ MDT relate to WDS and what they both do?

 

Thanks

[Gatt]

MDT is probably your best place to start.. It'll do eveything you need to do via Task Sequences - install OS, inject the necessary drivers and then install any sofware you want via LTI and uses the WAIK behind the scenes for configuring Windows settings

 

You create an MDT Boot image that you can then add to WDS, allowing you to PXE boot your PCs with the MDT Boot Image

 

You can script MDT based on Make/Model of PCs - handy for Driver Integration

I used to use MDT this way so that all I had to do at a PC was enter the name of the PC and what software I wanted on it - eveything else was handled by the Task Sequences

[Gatt]

Just thought i'd give quick summary of what everything is/does

 

 

• WAIK - Windows Automatied Installation Kit - needed for just about everything - has all the tools for WIM files (WinPE, imageX, etc) - Also contains System Image Manager (SIM or WSIM) which is used to edit unattend XML files for Vista / 7 / 2008 / R2
  
• WDS - Windows Deployment Services - Replaces the old RIS service - 3 main points - Boot Images - for PXE booting the PC to either WDS itself or MDT or SCCM.. Clean Install Windows (Vista onwards) as if it was from the install DVD, or capture and deploy a sysprepp'd PC - XP onwards...
  
• MDT - WDS with extras - alllows for custom "fresh" deployments of Windows XP onwards, and can be customised with drivers, OS Patches, Software via Task Sequences - Can be furhter customised by targetting TS's to Makes/Models of PC (eg drivers).. Ues Lite Touch Installations (LTI) - so you need to visit each PC - at least once (power it on and press F12) depening on the TS's
  
• SCCM - the creme de la creme - does everything MDT does and a heck of a lot more - it supports Zero Touch Installations (ZTI) - meaning you dont even need to go near a PC to rebuild it (Force PXE Boot, Schedule Rebuilds at a certain time), can integrate with MDT (never done this but it is possible)
  

Edited March 25, 2011 by Gatt

[tarquel]

Just my two pence here, and pretty much echo'ing the others many, while I fully love and recommend SCCM, I dare say that it could be overkill depending on what you actually need.

 

If you do want or need to do normal application deployment (after the OS is on the machine), OSD (Operating System Deployment in SCCM Terms ), machine inventory and reporting / Software Metering, etc etc.... then, providing the licensing cost isnt too much for you, go for it.

 

If you think it might be a case of doing too much in one hit, but eventually you will want it, then possibly just set it up, but only use it for Application Deployment and some light reporting, and set up a seperate WDS/MDT server for OSD'ing.

 

We kind of did this approach, with the exception that we used (and still do currently use) RIS for deploying XP, next came the set up of SCCM for some inventory / package deployment / natural progressing of things, and then started deploying Win7 via SCCM OSD around Oct of last year

 

At the very least, it would seem to me that you'll likely need WDS WITH MDT in it for your needs (may as well, they are both free and MDT with WDS gives you much more scope than either one alone IMO), and it'll help you get in to how the OSD works in SCCM, while keeping SCCM fresh for when you're confident in doing that.

 

Quite happy to have a chat about it in the evening if you want a IM'ing session - I'm heavily into it myself, along with some not-so-easy customised things within it - so always happy to chat about it PM me later on if you do want to chat about it

[sfawcett2]

Hi All,

We have just bought into EES agreement with MS, desktop and core std. I have given myself lots of work , updating windows XP to Windows 7 and office 2003 to Office 2010 on around 500 computers & laptops around the school.

I have used Ghost 2.5 and sysprep in the past while booting from a USB stick into PXE. SCCM cal are included in the agreement while the SSCM server licence probably costs less than £200 inc SQL . so is reachable in cost. Although I haven't got hardware to put in on. What's the min spec ? I have got workstations I could use as servers e.g. DEll GX745 dual core machines 2Gb ram. I can use either 2003 or 2008 server. Good enough ?

So where shall I start? SCCM or WDS or stay with Ghost? We also deploy packages (msi) via AD and MS updates via SWUS also AV via McAfee , I think Forefront may be included in EES.

My current deployment XP pro with office etc image via ghost takes 40 mins ... boot to usb stick, load sysprepped image, when done just name machine and its joined to the domain.

How quick is SCCM?

Does it put the win 7 key in , allow naming and join to domain ?

Any comments thanks.

[Gatt]

It depends on the size of the deployment..

SCCM can install from the network or from USB/DVD

An average network install takes about an hour, it takes its names from AD and auto-joins the domain or to a workgroup and can store Windows 7 keys (OEM or MAK - none needed if KMS is in effect)

I dont use image based installs favouring clean installs of windows and applications.

[sfawcett2]

Hi Gatt,

Ok bit slower than Ghost.

we generally ghost 32 pc's at a time using around 12 different images (windows XP) I'm hoping we can reduce that with Win 7.

"I dont use image based installs favouring clean installs of windows and applications" what does that mean ?.... clean image of Win 7 followed by packages sent via AD ( msi) ?

Is this because more flexible in package changes ?

Should I start small say with WDS or just jump straight in with SCCM (not used either before) ?

[Gatt]

To be fair, the length of time may be due to my aging network.. and Adobe CS3!! so lets cl it even at 40mins..

As for the installation method - I don't use a reference pc to create a flat image file,

Everything is installed "new" from SCCM - literally everyting - the OS, Apps are packaged into SCCM (either as MSI's or Silently installable EXE's where available), Drivers, WSUS udpates can be pushed out

 

I can create different Task Sequences for different types of install (I use 3 - Pupils, Teachers and Admin Staff) -

 

This means that if a new version of an application - eg flash or java JRE - is release, I can package it into SCCM and add it to the task sequences, without having to create a new WIM file all over again

Existing deployments can also get the new version via Software Distribution..

[Gatt]

If you're just starting out then I'd recommend maybe going for mdt to get used to task sequences - it's a slimmed down version of sccm...

[sfawcett2]

Can I use SSCM in a basic way fairly quickly or will it take Months to learn it ? ok just seen your 2nd post will try that first.

[qcomer]

MDT/SCCM are fairly easy to learn. A lot of the terms are different compared to your past experience probably but the system makes sense logistically and you become acquainted with it pretty quick. I love MDT and I am looking to go to SCCM soon to manage my machines very soon (hopefully before summer).

[adunlop]

MDT/SCCM are fairly easy to learn. A lot of the terms are different compared to your past experience probably but the system makes sense logistically and you become acquainted with it pretty quick. I love MDT and I am looking to go to SCCM soon to manage my machines very soon (hopefully before summer).

 

 

I work in a large Secondary in South Yorkshire around 1200 systems including curriculum laptops and desktops. Number grown significantly since 2004. When I arrived in 98 deployments involved Windows 98/NT CD (later on XP) office cd, memorising product keys and running from computer to computer. All our systems were networked. Oh yeah it needed plenty of patience and generated frustration. We were a net ware School at this time.

 

We bout zen works and I bought a £70 netware 4 book to learn netwre4/zenworks. The most expensive book I ever bought was also the heaviest, thickest and took the longest to read. However once read setting up and deploying os via zenworks was a piece of cake. All said even taking into account the £70 book (out of my pocket) it paid for it self many times over in time saved from how we were doing things.

 

This worked well for a year and then as the government threw money at us we bought more pc's and thus needed more Netware licenses. However Netware had decided they didn't need us and the pricing of the upgrade to netware 5 and additional cal's werea rip off.

 

 

So Advanced Server 2000 was the route we were forced down. Much cheaper on server and cal licences and of course much tighter server / desktop integration.

 

So we looked at Ghost but too £££ for us so RIS which was free was what we used. Simple to setup, easy to use and reliable at deployment too. The only gotcha was with the nic .inf file. Get the right one or edit your own and happy days.

 

Until threw more money at the school and we had to get best value so now had varied hardware from multiple vendors and thus multiple images which soon grew into a full time task to maintain.

 

The buggers threw e-vouchers at the school and allowed departments to spend them on software they never sorry always use and that now had to be deployed so more growth in apps and gpo's to push them out which resulted in ear bindings about how annoying it was that application x that installed once (per machine) at startup meant that they couldn't use the machine for teaching and that deploying to 30 machines a 100mbit network was a no no we ended up using lunches after school etc installing apps .

 

Other stuff didn't get done our ears got bent even more. We got SMS 2003 which is now config manager 2007. Initially we used RIS to boot the os deploy env but quickly moved to WDS.

 

Over the years we moved to a single XP image across our broad range of hardware of a wide vintage. We have added in all th os in between and added hundreds of applications many of which we had to engineer our own msi's for as the authors couldn't manage anything but an exe for their crap vb or java based educational software. It's better now but educational software was the worst I have ever come across for reliability / ease of installation and deployment. They just assumed that you were installing to a single pc that you always had full admin right for and that you never ever installed other application or updates ever. They expected exactly the same if you were installing on 30.

 

Once company who's product cause me untold grief was Nelson Thornes. It was part of a package of ks3 science software and textbooks. If you installed a different version of flash, java or any other software it would stop working. I wrote a ripping letter to them and my line manager about how poor that particular software was and they admitted it was poor and that the folks who had written it for them had been asked to make changes to it but they wouldn't.

 

 

Anyway with Vista onwards it's heaven (or xp with the unsupported Hal switcher script) its deployment heaven. build your own list of install instructions per room (task sequences) to partition, format hard drive. Install os with key. Install drivers from a bank of drivers already imported into Configmgr. Install Applications and then shut down. All from a simple edited list of steps that once created is your customised imaging checklist per room.

 

New systems? Import any drivers from the supplier driver cd if they're not already used in another image somewhere. Pick the os to be deployed and add the list of software you want installed. Name the task sequence and advertise it to a collection or group of your new pc's that youhave manually added into configmgr along with their mac address and you're done!

 

Configmgr will install in a couple of hours. Then you gradually customise configmgr to make it work how you want. The more you expect the longer it takes to customise but once you are happy with your customisation it becomes very easy to maintain. Task sequences can be duplicated in a mouse click. Edit to customise and bang you've got a dedicated setup for a particular room or department.

 

You can do a lot more with configmgr too. Asset management, reporting (ie how many of my pcs have less than 512mb of ram and which ones are they?) App deployment Patch deployment. Remote Control clients, search all your systems for a specific file.

 

Well, I was intending a quick reply and ended up typing all this apologies. Oh and I still have the £70 netware 4 book if someone wants to buy it. Can't face throwing that money away and maybe one day when all the fossil fuels are used it can keep me warm.

 

Andy

 

All the comments are my own personal opinions and do not reflect the position of my employer or anyone else.