RDP 7 support, HP T5735 thin clients

[localzuk]

I currently have a bunch of HP T5735 thin clients around the school, which all have their linux based OS on. However, the problem I have is that rdesktop only supports RDP5 and not the new RDP7 stuff with FX (ie. improved graphic support etc...).

 

Now, these machines run Sempron processors and have 1GB RAM. Would it be feasible for me to grab a bunch of Windows licenses (Vista Home Basic or something like that), and install this on them, and then use the proper RDP7 client?

 

Reason being is that at some point in the next couple of years, I want to migrate our current 2003 terminal server farm to a 2008 r2 farm, moving from loads of 32bit virtual machines to just a couple of high specced, purpose purchased 64bit machines.

[SYNACK]

Only 1GB of onboard flash to work with there may make it tough

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fh18000.www1.hp.com%2Fproducts%2Fquickspecs%2F12889_ca%2F12889_ca.PDF&ei=jlxBTZafBIuKvQPnkJDMAQ&usg=AFQjCNGVB5tj5hmzzcRbWZjREFm6ZaGNLQ

 

You could possibly PXE boot or with some messing run a custom Windows 7 PE image off the flash on that with all the drivers slipstreamed and the latest mstsc app to automatticly hook up to the 2k8 server which as far as I know should allow you to use the latest features.

 

The issues arrise with respect to liscencing and also that Win PE will only run for 24 hours before rebooting. As full Windows will not boot of USB storage you would be limited to this or finding a way to fit a hard drive or SSD into the multibay for it to boot off.

 

The other issue with all of this would be the avalibility of drivers for this given that it was never shipped as a whole PC solution and certain components may be implemented differently or have no drivers avalible.

 

It would be worth a go and I would probably look into the WinPE idea to test first but it probably won't be easy.

[localzuk]

PXE boot into what? PXE boot requires an OS image that gets copied to the machine.

 

Windows 7 PE sounds like a pretty big bodge job too.

 

I've just remembered 'Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs' so am now having a look at it.

[ZeroHour]

I dont think you will get much of the RDP 7 benefits as I thought it still required a bit of a graphics card to do it as the rendering is done client/terminal side rather then server for remotefx etc?

[localzuk]

I dont think you will get much of the RDP 7 benefits as I thought it still required a bit of a graphics card to do it as the rendering is done client/terminal side rather then server for remotefx etc?

 

Its offloaded to the graphics card on the server side rather than the client side, with the goal of allowing high quality graphics without needing special clients. RemoteFX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[SYNACK]

PXE boot into what? PXE boot requires an OS image that gets copied to the machine.

 

Windows 7 PE sounds like a pretty big bodge job too.

 

I've just remembered 'Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs' so am now having a look at it.

 

PXE boot to WinPE, you are right it is a hack but it is a way to do it within the limited infrastructure.

 

Not sure if Windows fundimentals will help much as the offloading is done with WPF which is not included in XP/Fundimentals so it probably won't fully support RDP7.

 

I am pretty sure that the new features still require local GPU power at the WDM level (directX 9.0c with native Vista/7 drivers) at least so that it can individually composit each of the elements locally rather than just dumbly fireing off a bunch of optimised screenshots.

Edited January 27, 2011 by SYNACK

[localzuk]

PXE boot to WinPE, you are right it is a hack but it is a way to do it within the limited infrastructure.

 

Not sure if Windows fundimentals will help much as the offloading is done with WPF which is not included in XP/Fundimentals so it probably won't fully support RDP7.

 

I am pretty sure that the new features still require local GPU power at the WDM level (directX 9.0c with native Vista/7 drivers) at least so that it can individually composit each of the elements locally rather than just dumbly fireing off a bunch of optimised screenshots.

 

Nope, when RemoteFX is release in 2k8 r2 sp1, it is simply a host side technology. A good explanation at Brian Madden's blog.

 

For those who don't know, RemoteFX is an enhancement to RDP's graphics remoting capabilities. The goal of RemoteFX is to deliver the full modern Windows desktop experience—including multiple displays, Aero, and multimedia—to all types of client devices including very thin, sub-$100 thin clients. RemoteFX does this via a technique known as host-based rendering, which means the entire final composited screen image is rendered on the remote host and then compressed and sent down to the client. (In effect this moves more computing into the datacenter and lessens the importance on specific client devices or client specs.)

 

Fundamentally RemoteFX is just a codec (like H.264) that's been written for real-time encodes. (H.264, on the other hand, is meant for content that can be pre-rendered not in real time, like TV shows and movies.)

 

So basically, the image is just a series of screenshots treated as an interactive movie.

[SYNACK]

I must have been thinking of 6.1 and the original 7, my bad.

[carvjo]

You could try 2X: - PXE one of the 2X images - 2X Thinclient - these are regularly updated - they say they are Server 2008 ready - as MS (or Citrix or VMWare) add new features 2X are pretty good at updating the images to reflect them..

[localzuk]

2x still make use of rdesktop as their RDP client, the same as all linux based images.

[carvjo]

2x still make use of rdesktop as their RDP client, the same as all linux based images.

 

I thought it used NoMachine NX technology?

[SYNACK]

I thought it used NoMachine NX technology?

 

Only if you use there stuff server side as far as I know, Windows does not support NX by default.

[localzuk]

I thought it used NoMachine NX technology?

 

2X use whatever technology you connect to. So, I'd be running RDP on my 2k8 r2 servers, and therefore the thin OS (ie 2x thinclient) would be running rdesktop to connect to it. If I were running Nomachine NX server, I'd need to use the right client to connect to that instead.

[carvjo]

Not worth arguing about but 2X said on 13th January 2011 in the MSDN Channel9 forum:

 

"We at 2X Software have licensed the RDP 7 with RemoteFX protocol and are developing these clients for Linux, Mac, iPad, iPhone and Android. So you will be able to take advantage of the RDP 7 features on these no Windows OS's. Please check back for new releases at 2x.com"

 

Like I said - they update their thinclient images regularly.. You can PXE boot a HP thinclient with a 2X image..

Edited January 27, 2011 by carvjo
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[Axel]

It's an interesting question - what do HP themselves say on the matter.

 

There is a difference between being W2008 (r2) ready, and supporting all the new features. For example W2008 has a 32 bit colour cursor, W2003 had 8 bit cursor, so a pure RDP5 client would have a black blob instead of a cursor - (as clients written back then would only support an 8 bit cursor and would give unpredictable results when sent the 32 bit cursor)

 

Microsoft also beefed up encryption for W2008, resulting in clients to also be upgraded in the same way or they wouldn't connect at all.

 

Incorporating these (and no doubt others functions) would make the client "W2008 ready" and allow to connect as an RDP5 client to a W2008 server - but that is a far cry from supporting all the additional benefit of W2008...(Microphone support, RemoteApp, RemoteFX etc etc)

[SYNACK]

Not worth arguing about but 2X said on 13th January 2011 in the MSDN Channel9 forum:

 

"We at 2X Software have licensed the RDP 7 with RemoteFX protocol and are developing these clients for Linux, Mac, iPad, iPhone and Android. So you will be able to take advantage of the RDP 7 features on these no Windows OS's. Please check back for new releases at 2x.com"

 

I think the 'ing' is the important bit to take from that. When they have it ready it should be a good solution, the question is the timeframe for the working product and also the cost involved in using their clients (if there is one).

[mounters]

Not sure how close it is to full RDP7 yet, but this FreeRDP which is forked from the rdesktop project looks interesting and should be easy enough to just add to the T5735 build and then just redistribute that image to all your others.

[localzuk]

HP say this 'discontinued product, on yer bike' pretty much...

 

Interesting that 2x are developing RDP7 into their products! I like the 2x stuff already, and have had a quote off them a couple months back. As and when they release the product, I'll be seriously considering it.

[saundersmatt]

Windows licenses (Vista Home Basic or something like that)

 

Windows 7 only supports remote desktop from version upwards of Professional see here.

 

Matt

[localzuk]

Windows 7 only supports remote desktop from version upwards of Professional see here.

 

Matt

 

Wrong direction. That is for you to connect to a Windows 7 machine, not to connect from a Windows 7 machine to another machine.

[kmount]

Windows 7 only supports remote desktop from version upwards of Professional see here.

 

Matt

 

 

This feature is included with all editions of Windows 7, but you can only connect to computers running the Professional, Ultimate, or Enterprise editions.

 

To. Not from.

[saundersmatt]

You're both right. I was only half concentrating as someone was bending my left ear.

 

Matt

[localzuk]

Right, I've been having a play and have now got one of the t5735's running WinFLP with SP3, all device drivers working an the RDP 7 client installed.

 

Instructions:

 

1. You need to get drivers for the SMBus, network card and graphics. These are available below:
   


1. Broadcom.com - Ethernet NIC NetLink Driver Downloads - Network card (Broadcom Netlink)
   
2. Drivers & Downloads - SMBus (ATI SMBus)
   
3. ATI Catalyst - Graphics (ATI Radeon X1250)

 

[*]You will most likely wish to choose a custom install, and check the 'additional driver support' option, to ensure as many drivers are available natively as possible.

 

[*]When you install the ATI drivers, do an advanced install and choose only the driver, unless you specifically need the 64Mb control centre installing too.

 

[*]Remember to delete the installer files from the thin client once you have the drivers installed (ie. c:\dell and c:\ATI). This will free up a good chunk of valuable space.

 

[*]Do a disk cleanup once all the above is done, as this will clear up around another 50Mb of space.

 

[*]You can tick the 'Compress drive to save disk space' box on the c: drive's properties to free up more space. (This freed up 110Mb of space when I did it).

 

[*]There is no need for the indexing service to be ticked on the drive, as no files will need searching on the device.

 

[*]Download the WinFLP SP3 update file from Download details: Service Pack 3 for Windows Embedded for Point of Service and Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs

 

[*]Follow the instructions part way down the page titled 'Insufficient disk space to install' here You receive error messages if there is insufficient free disk space on the system drive to install the Windows XP Service Pack 3 package

 

[*]You will likely not have sound now, so will need to install the HD Audio Codecs driver from here Realtek

 

[*]You can now get the RDP 7.0 client from Download details: Update for Windows XP (KB969084)

[localzuk]

Updated: The drivers are no longer at the links above, they can be found here now though:

 

SMBus driver: http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/SoftwareDescription.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=12454&prodSeriesId=3252512&prodNameId=3253418&swEnvOID=1093&swLang=8&mode=2&taskId=135&swItem=ir-45532-1

 

The graphics driver: ATI Catalyst

 

And the network driver: Ethernet NIC NetLink Driver Downloads | Broadcom

[localzuk]

A bit more info.

 

In order to get NLA working, which you'll really want to do if you have a Session Broker, you need to make some changes to the client.

 

1. Copy the file credssp.dll from System32 on a normal XP SP3 machine to the same place on the FLP machine (it doesn't get installed for some reason).

2. Edit the registry according to the instructions here: Description of the Credential Security Support Provider (CredSSP) in Windows XP Service Pack 3

3. Edit the registry further according to the example below:

 

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\CredentialsDelegation]
"AllowDefaultCredentials"=dword:00000001
"ConcatenateDefaults_AllowDefault"=dword:00000001


[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\CredentialsDelegation\AllowDefaultCredentials]
"1"="termsrv/*.domain"
"2"="termsrv/rdsfarm.domain"
"3"="termsrv/rds1.domain"
"4"="termsrv/rds2.domain"

 

Changing the lower part to use the right servers. Option 1 there turns on CredSSP for all servers on your domain etc...