GrumbleDook Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 This is not the weakest argument in the world. If you have to take system offline to update it, it affects its usability and functionality quite a lot. I notice you didn't respond to comments from others about windows? If you would like MIS to be available during updates through multiple, redundant systems I am sure that the providers can build that for you ... at a cost. Now, how many schools are likely to want that cost when there is the simple option of planning things better? I refer you to RFC1925, in particular, truth 7a (7a) (corollary). Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three). And yes, I stand by the statement that arguing that something is rubbish just because it needs updates is the weakest argument in the world (ie the weakest argument which could be used within this discussion ... there are plenty of other weakest arguments ... Mr Blair "But that nice Mr George said there were nasty missiles in Iraq!" springs to mind ... and I am sure we can all pick hairs from that too.) So ... do I expect software updates in any MIS? Yes ... Do I expect them at regular intervals as part of a regime to do improvements in functionality? Yes ... Do I expect to be able to find out about the improvements prior to them being released? Yes ... Do I expect the same of any application package or OS? Yes ... Do I expect downtime when doing any upgrade work or patching on *any* software? Yes ... Do I think that it should be well planned by those doing the change to have minimal impact on users? Yes ... (I hate the think of the number of times I have gone on about change management on the forum, my blog, twitter, county meetings, etc) Do I understand that this applies to Sharepoint, Moodle, Joomla, Wordpress, SIMS, CMIS, PARS, Mac OS, Windows? Hell yes ... So ... do you want to continue sniping about minor technical stuff or actually talk about the important stuff the MIS is used for ... managing data?
GrumbleDook Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 The last SIMS update required, everyone to be logged out of SIMS, full backup of database to taken. Client workstations updated, (and don't tell me this is automatic.) SIMS workstations updates relies on giving users write permissions to areas of the workstation they shouldn't have. Windows Updates (WSUS) performs these updates in the background independant of the users permissions. Hmm ... taking a full backup of the last complete dataset before doing an upgrade? Can't see an issue with that. I take a backup of my Moodle DBs before doing anything on them (thankfully) and if people have used it during the day then I will need to take a backup and not relay on the one from last night. SIMS is not written by MS so I don't expect them to be 100% WSUS like ... but I take the same stance with Autocad, or Adobe Premier Elements ... it needs other stuff to help get things out. I can think of a number of applications that need bizarre permissions on files, some for good reasons, others for no reason other than the laziness of coders (or the restrictions put on them by the companies they work for). Do I think many vendors could continue to make improvements? Too right ... but again, we are back to minor technical stuff that can mainly be worked around by the use of the right tools and some decent planning.
PiqueABoo Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 The last notable SIMS update was a necessary special case re. the end of MS life-cycle for SQL2005, surely? refer you to RFC1925 Which is of course one of the 1st April (variable strength) joke series, but sticking with it.. when folk have the antithesis of Cheap they tend to expect Good & Fast... and thus don't normally expect to have to work around things. -- It's just MIS, they're all Much-Of-A-Muchness[tm] and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for future paradigm shifts in what it does in user-land, less so any that makes much of a difference to educational outcomes. It might run out there instead of here, or have new ways of noting, counting, arranging and displaying beans on gadgets de jour, and one day it might even learn to speak a standard language, but I think all that is relatively yawnsome and quite teensy next to the BECTA point: It apparently costs the country, the tax-payer - most of whom are getting poorer (and poorer state services) by the day, a lot more money than one would reasonably expect.
Banjo Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 It was interesting that Becta were looking at value for money from MIS and encouraging open source MIS/LP’s. Where as the DfE were responsible for most of the changes and development work required by suppliers to meet constant changes to the Census, thus making it harder and more expensive for suppliers. How much is the change in DfE code going to cost to suppliers? (then past on to schools) and to LA’s who have their own systems built around the old codes.
EdWhittaker Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) I really don't understand why the spec for the census changes every time. One suspects that it's either incompetence at DfE or some shiny-hatted civil servant justifying his job. Both are equally likely in my book. Getting back to the original topic: we used CMIS at my school and we teachers loved it in the same way we loved visiting the dentist - a painful necessity! We loved the way it would mysteriously not save the info we'd entered, despite clicking 'submit'. Oh how we laughed when the deputy told us at staff briefing that all (yes ALL) of the end of term reports that everyone had done on CMIS had 'disappeared' - and could we all please do them again? What a lark! Since I've left the school, they have moved over to SIMS; apparently the staff love that just as much!! Edited January 4, 2011 by vikpaw Language - else it will be blocked by some filters.
PiqueABoo Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 making it harder and more expensive for suppliers. OK I can see the (repeated) pain school-side, but how hard is that supplier-side then? How much does it actually cost them and why? I'm nothing like an expert on what's required, but quickly glancing at the 2011 guidance the changes just don't look that big. If you wanted to pay me ooh.. £50K a year to do nothing but worry about those for any given product, update some specialist census reporting/validation code, fret about "nice" deployment mechanisms of these updates and so on... I reckon I might be able to spend six months a year sunning myself on a beach. Now amortise that cost across the customers and recall how much you already pay for maintenance. But again I'm not an expert, so perhaps someone more enlightened can credibly explain why this is naive?
SpuffMonkey Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 The last SIMS update required, everyone to be logged out of SIMS, full backup of database to taken. Client workstations updated, (and don't tell me this is automatic.) SIMS workstations updates relies on giving users write permissions to areas of the workstation they shouldn't have. Windows Updates (WSUS) performs these updates in the background independant of the users permissions. This is one of the reasons that I like CMIS - its so easy to do the updates.
GREED Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 This is one of the reasons that I like CMIS - its so easy to do the updates. Generally SIMS is not difficult to do either. If suitable procedures are in place and used then there are no worries most of the time. There are major upgrades to be done from time to time, but so is there in Windows/Server. How intrusive is a Server migration (ie to 2008)? I think part of the reason we forget MS products is that we are expected to learn to use the software how it is, rather than with an MIS we want it to do what we want, and comment/moan/argue* Delete as appropriate as to how and what should be done. Funny that!
EdWhittaker Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 I think part of the reason we forget MS products is that we are expected to learn to use the software how it is, rather than with an MIS we want it to do what we want... And this is a very good point, Graham. We may curse at the idiosyncrasies or Word or Excel but we do, in general, learn to use them as they are. However, once you make it know that there is the possibility of some customisation with an application, then expectation levels rise, sometimes to an unrealistic level (I'm speaking from personal experience with our own product) with a concomitant increase in disappointment levels. The less you expect from a product, the less likely you are to be disappointed (and vice versa!).
GREED Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 And this is a very good point, Graham. We may curse at the idiosyncrasies or Word or Excel but we do, in general, learn to use them as they are. However, once you make it know that there is the possibility of some customisation with an application, then expectation levels rise, sometimes to an unrealistic level (I'm speaking from personal experience with our own product) with a concomitant increase in disappointment levels. The less you expect from a product, the less likely you are to be disappointed (and vice versa!). Fully agree Ed. I do find it interesting though in the various 'discussions' on MIS abilities and features. In the schools I have worked in, there is very little moaning and groaning that (SIMS, only because that is all I have worked with) will not do this or that. Yes there are the odd 'wouldn't it be nice if'... but then it would be nice if Excel did a lot of things!!! I have worked with staff to learn to use the software as it is, just as you would with MS apps. Not to get hopes up or anything else, just 'this is what the software does, and this is how to use it to it's best'. That is where my success with MISs has come. And going back one, it would be nice if Excel did a lot of things, but we manage without it and work just as well without it.
Banjo Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 OK I can see the (repeated) pain school-side, but how hard is that supplier-side then? How much does it actually cost them and why? I'm nothing like an expert on what's required, but quickly glancing at the 2011 guidance the changes just don't look that big. Have a peek at this, it wont be in place for spring but these changes have been submitted to the CBDS for Summer ! DfE: New Local Authority Codes - January 2011
scholarpack Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Have a peek at this, it wont be in place for spring but these changes have been submitted to the CBDS for Summer ! DfE: New Local Authority Codes - January 2011 The DFE changes are really not that much of a coding big deal. And I'm speaking as someone who has just done the January Census updates. Any big supplier would like you to think it's very time consuming to accommodate. But to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies, "well, they would say that, wouldn't they" .
Banjo Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 The DFE changes are really not that much of a coding big deal. And I'm speaking as someone who has just done the January Census updates. Any big supplier would like you to think it's very time consuming to accommodate. But to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies, "well, they would say that, wouldn't they" . But this may impact on UPN's & CTF's etc. Every database that holds pupils records Whether at school (MIS), LA (Central database + internal databases), supplier (FFT etc), or national level (S2S, Edubase, Collect etc) will need recoding.
Sivadam Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) The DFE changes are really not that much of a coding big deal. And I'm speaking as someone who has just done the January Census updates..... As the one that first mentioned this - the argument I put forward is that the updates have to be done - not that it is difficult to do. As you say - you have had to do them for January Census! What does take a little longer are the new innovations that are often included in the software - innovations that have often appeared as a direct result of customer consultation and testing. Just look at the enhancements in SIMS Spring Release to see examples! Edited January 4, 2011 by Sivadam
Sivadam Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) I really don't understand why the spec for the census changes every time. One suspects that it's either incompetence at DfE or some shiny-hatted civil servant justifying his job. Both are equally likely in my book.... If you check the specifications you will see that during 2011/12 the statutory requirements will change for 16 different areas. If you are a SIMS user then these are listed in Section 4 of the SIMS Entitlement Document (I assume that other suppliers have a similar document!). These changes all have to be written into the software in time for each Upgrade. And the list does not include any new changes that the DfE has not yet published. With a new Government there could be many of these! ... Getting back to the original topic: we used CMIS at my school and we teachers loved it in the same way we loved visiting the dentist - a painful necessity! We loved the way it would mysteriously not save the info we'd entered, despite clicking 'submit'. Oh how we laughed when the deputy told us at staff briefing that all (yes ALL) of the end of term reports that everyone had done on CMIS had 'disappeared' - and could we all please do them again? What a lark! Since I've left the school, they have moved over to SIMS; apparently the staff love that just as much!! One wonders if this indicates that the software is not set up to it's optimum in the first place. Apologies if my thought is incorrect, but this sort of issue should not occur with either of the MISs that you mention. Edited January 4, 2011 by Sivadam
EdWhittaker Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 One wonders if this indicates that the software is not set up to it's optimum in the first place. Apologies if my thought is incorrect, but this sort of issue should not occur with either of the MISs that you mention. Yes, this is true; users have the responsibility to ensure that they are using the application in accordance with suppliers recommendations. However, a more resilient, easier to use application would minimise these difficulties. The problems referred to above were, as I understand it, the result of an update which broke more things than it fixed.
Sivadam Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) ....The problems referred to above were, as I understand it, the result of an update which broke more things than it fixed. It certainly should not have happened with SIMS - at least it has never been a general problem to my knowledge! No doubt CMIS Users will be able to comment in a similar vein re. their experiences! Edited January 4, 2011 by Sivadam
Sivadam Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) All the iSAMS updates happen automatically at night...... As do SIMS Upgrades if you use SOLUS3! You do have something to do though - decide which workstations you want to upgrade and when - i.e. it is totally under the control of the school. In my book that is a massive advantage. If you are in the middle of a big Reporting Session then you may wish to delay that upgrade until that Reporting Session is complete - especially if you know that there will be changes to the software in that area!! Edited January 4, 2011 by Sivadam
GREED Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 As do SIMS Upgrades if you use SOLUS3! You do have something to do though - decide which workstations you want to upgrade and when - i.e. it is totally under the control of the school. In my book that is a massive advantage. If you are in the middle of a big Reporting Session then you may wish to delay that upgrade until that Reporting Session is complete - especially if you know that there will be changes to the software in that area!! Oh how many times did we upgrade during Autumn reporting season and find AM7 dies when trying to produce reports, Mike? lol Well, I apparantly didn't learn my lesson and did it 3 times!
Sivadam Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Oh how many times did we upgrade during Autumn reporting season and find AM7 dies when trying to produce reports, Mike? lol Well, I apparantly didn't learn my lesson and did it 3 times! Graham - I am surprised at you! Once should have been enough!
GREED Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Graham - I am surprised at you! Once should have been enough! Actually in my defence, I had to apply the update because there were fixes needed to sort other, equally urgent issues, in one case to fix AM7, just to break it again somewhere else... I must say though that there was only ever about 3 occasions with issues such as this that caused a real headache!
Sivadam Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Actually in my defence, I had to apply the update because there were fixes needed to sort other, equally urgent issues, in one case to fix AM7, just to break it again somewhere else... I must say though that there was only ever about 3 occasions with issues such as this that caused a real headache! I can't actually remember this happening here. Is it a long time ago?
GREED Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 I can't actually remember this happening here. Is it a long time ago? Yes over 2 years ago now, like I say this sort of thing only happened about 2/3 times in the life of me working with SIMS, so not bad... Vista happened in a shorter time than that!!!
john Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Getting back to the original topic: we used CMIS at my school and we teachers loved it in the same way we loved visiting the dentist - a painful necessity! We loved the way it would mysteriously not save the info we'd entered, despite clicking 'submit'. Oh how we laughed when the deputy told us at staff briefing that all (yes ALL) of the end of term reports that everyone had done on CMIS had 'disappeared' - and could we all please do them again? What a lark! Since I've left the school, they have moved over to SIMS; apparently the staff love that just as much!! Ah that old chestnut, there were a few niggles that could caused that to occur, some were bugs in the way it worked with schools assessments, as remember unlike Sims (as far as I've ever known, learnt and been told about it so please don't murder me to much if I am wrong on the Sims side) Serco is a completly empty system when you get it and install it. You CAN opt into Curriculum Packs that have loads of assessment template samples, report starters etc for curriculum analysis, progress tracking etc, but what I believe with Sims is you get all that as part of it you don't get a blank and empty Sims, you start from the included template and just tweak / move etc. (Serco does have a large number of included reports before that sounds like it has nothing! Standard things like Mailmerge labels, attendance analysis etc is all there as expected I'm on about the Curriculmn Assessment areas only). As a result of this huge flexibility, people can do things in many ways in the templates and assessments which can result in issues and errorrs occuring that were not spotted in testing due to this as the mould is huge. Serco isn't a one size fits all product by any stretch, many people I talk to say they like its concept of being infinatly configurable, but it comes at a price of needing a high end data manager, someone that knows and has time to build and design a lot of things from scratch, but the end results can be some of the best out there. As a result you could have been unlucky and hit an actual code bug, which is annoying, but could happen with any program from any vendor be it an MIS or Email Server. If it wasn't a specific bug to your data / setup, in my experience of seeing that issue, it was usually down to Poor Training of Staff in the use of ePortal. Three common issues that caused it, all of which with the right user training are avoidable: Too many staff I know would hit submit at the end of doing say 30 subject reports, nothing weird in that at all, but the issue is what they did in the middle of those reports. They have gone to the toilet, had a 10 minute phone call with someone, met a parent, nipped to the staffroom for a brew etc, and by the time they actually hit submit from the last time they accessed the server it was over the inactivity time-out, which is something that is obviously needed for security. So they hit submit and it "sends the data" and comes back saying you've timed out, and thus lost all 30 reports (assuming you didn't submit as you were going along - think as submit like Save is what I tell people, you wouldn't write 30 reports in word and not save them periodically, that's what submit is doing). Too many people use the back button in browsers, the back button in a database driven web application is evil, we all know this from online banking, shopping online etc, you hit back in the checkout on a lot of sites and it errors and you start again. If, until the latest release of Serco, you used back in the browser on an assessment screen you could go back to your class lists, which then allowed you to say enter reports for Y9-Eng1, submit them, back button twice, once to back out of the submission confirmation and back to raw reports and then back again to the class lists. Some people hit submit or forward again in the middle of those two backs and were writing blanks over the data by accident as they were re-loading a cached blank grid to fill in from the browser cache on the PC, thus deleting your own reports due to end user poor understanding of how to use the system. In the latest release the browser back button in all officially supported browsers, does not function, you click it and it just flickers and takes you back to where you are already. You can use the built in application back button though where its available as it re-runs the query to make sure your data is accurate and correct. Third most common one is people on Wifi or using it over the Internet from home / remote site, you would simply, but perhaps un-spotted by you loose your connection to the Internet / LAN and thus you terminate your web session and have the same issue as point 1. When people were on dial up internet this was a big problem, but now a large number of people are on broadband its not as bigger problem as in the past. I obviosly don't know your previous school or setup it had but those are the big 3 I've come across with it and with the right training the "issues" seem to go away and not re-occur. I also should add, ensuring that your updates are done on time, and your e-portal is installed and kept in good health I do feel are always worth doing and keeping on-top of, its if just chucked on and not checked or tested you can have more problems and issues which you think at the MIS's fault but not something you can always know about as an end user, your IT Manager / MIS Manager could very much be an issue in relation to your issues with it. Since I re-installed my entire system this summer gone its performance is amazing now, fine its on a new server as well, BUT the system is a lot quicker, things run right now, less annoyance are occurring than ever before and people are positive about it which is great. It is certianly a great MIS and I dread the day that I move to a school that uses SIMS as in my mind I would be going backwards, if you know and use Serco and spend time getting to know it you are in for a great relationship. Treat it like your life partner you don't just find the first person you meet and marry them and have kids etc, you take it slower than that in most cases. Your MIS should be treat the same. Yes, this is true; users have the responsibility to ensure that they are using the application in accordance with suppliers recommendations. However, a more resilient, easier to use application would minimise these difficulties. The problems referred to above were, as I understand it, the result of an update which broke more things than it fixed. I do remember the release your pointing to Ed, and I believe your on about the one from Jan 2009, that was due originally Dec 2008 for the Jan Census that was delayed and rushed to allow the census due to last minute changes, it did has some side affects that were not well tested, and I agree that it was a poor release and took a bit of time to fix all issues it introduced. However Serco did admit that that release was an issue, after the event, and released a new one at the end of that month after the Census to resolve a large number of the issues reported, bug fixes were issued during the time and I know they were working incredibly hard to solve things very quickly. I'm not saying that it was an acceptable thing that occurred, however I am very sure you could go over many software products, including Capita SIMS and find a release somewhere in its history that they would rather forget they ever launched to the public. Who remembers Publisher 97, some people never knew it existed as Publisher 98 appeared rather quickly, why because 97 wasn't the best release they did. This is one of the reasons that I like CMIS - its so easy to do the updates. That is one great thing with it, one box to update job done. No worrying about clients failing to install updates, .ini files going wrong on clients if you move something, it just works great. Upgrade Admin, Upgrade any extra modules in Admin, Upgrade Eportal job done and everyone is done in the same time. I know SIMS has its SOLUS but it requires each machine to upgrade its program, you could be missing a .net patch on a machine for some reason and then it fails or damages the install. This is a big time waster in my view, which is why a number of people I know use SIMS on a TS environment inside the school as it means far reduced upgrades needed for it. 2
vikpaw Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Cheers john, Very comprehensive Just a few points: sims assessment is also very blank, just a framework to create your own nightmare of numbers in. there is an assessment pack that can be downloaded with some stuff pre-built, certainly for primary and to store key stage results / exams, but mostly it's open ended. so perhaps not as likely to fail as serco as the framework is pretty tight in it's interaction. As far as i know, SOLUS will install any required .net frameworks also, if they are missing, this just means it takes longer, so it's easier if the lastest is on the images where possible. However, it is still cumbersome if each machine has to be upgraded. That's where terminal services or SLG makes things easier. Is SERCO totally web based then? Even for admin tasks? I like the life partner analogy You have your ball and chain and I have mine. Can't live with 'em; can't live without 'em. And trading one in for another is a real PITA! Edited January 5, 2011 by vikpaw edit framework. 1
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