Face-Man Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 And the winner is .... Fronter http://www.lgfl.net/lgfl/accounts/news/web/archive/issue61 Though in parnership with LogicCMG so there must be some serious money knocking around
budgester Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 And the winner is .... Fronter http://www.lgfl.net/lgfl/accounts/news/web/archive/issue61 Though in parnership with LogicCMG so there must be some serious money knocking around Oh, I'm so excited I can't sit still. I wonder if this is gonna get completely ignored in the same way as the LGFL digitalbrain. Because of course schools were consulted on this by ...... no one. The most popular vle in the uk is ........ I guess moodle. 1548 registered sites in the UK. I enjoyed helping out on the BETT stand on friday, but there seems to be so many clueless idiots making decisions about educational ICT. So for anyone at the LGFL reading this, I am not impressed. But I'm sure it'll all be okay when we all go away and ICT is outsourced with BSF. Disclaimer: These are my opinions not my employers.
Grommit Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Is this a good VLE or bad VLE ? Even tho Moodle's free does this have more features than moodle ?
budgester Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Is this a good VLE or bad VLE ? Even tho Moodle's free does this have more features than moodle ? There's the problem, the website doesn't give much information other than the usual marketing blurb, No demo, So we can't even see what we are getting. The moodle site runs on moodle, so we can see what is possible. If you want a specific feature in fronter, you have to hope and pray that the company will find it in there interest to add it in. And when we say moodle is free, don't forget that it's not only free of cost (to acquire the software, of course there is a cost for server, maintainence etc) but it it free to do whatever you want to it. I.e. open source, (see http://www.gnu.org) so if I want to add SMS texting with a link to my MIS system I can code it up and give that away free as well. So is this a good VLE ? I really couldn't say. Is this good software ? Check out the way the links to pages on there website work, I have never seen anything quite so odd. Is there a community of thousands of people around the globe using with information and courses being shared ? Is the LGFL going to share the process of chosing the VLE ? Becta only released there recommended VLE providers a few days ago, but thats another story. Is there a range of books and companies that help with training and support ? How many other Universities and Schools use the product so that skills are transferable for staff and students ? Do you want me to go on ? probably not, I'll try and shut up now. Regards Budgester
GrumbleDook Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Ok ... a quick retort *against* Moodle ... perhaps a little surprising from me but there you go. Moodle is nice ... moodle is good ... but moodle does not always fit into how a school operates. Yes, it is free to download and install ... but someone maintains it and makes sure it runs ... there, a cost. Someone creates courses and puts them on there ... another cost. Someone works on it with the students and with other users ... someone ensures that it is backed up ... that it is patched ... someone looks at new bits and redevelops how the school uses it. All are costs to the school. Moodle is not *free* ... there are costs involved ... and too many people keep shouting *Free, free, free* ... without including the small print. If you are going to say free then include the small print. I have a go about other VLEs that fail to do this so why should moodle be any different. Options ... Moodle can be easily hosted so that a chunk of these costs are paid for on an annual basis and you don't have to worry about it ... the backup, the patching, etc. The creation of resources and courses takes time. Some other VLEs have tools that make more sense to staff based on existing resources ... this can save time in training and in creating materials. Moodle does not include email. Yes, there are a number of other packages out there that can be plugged in, but even the OU have not ditched their prime choice for email and conferencing yet ... FirstClass lives and is thriving at the OU and other places (Ultraversity is another FirstClass base ... and Plone is the other part!) Personally I don't like DigitalBrain and I think that *anything* that the LGfL puts in will be better. Fronter is based on a similar structure to Moodle and several other VLEs, but has a number of ready to go packs that can be plugged in to it ... not including other resources that can be purchased. The VLE has to fit around the pedagogy of your school ... not the other way around. Some schools are innovative and will use the move to a Learning Platform as a chance to shake up what they do and people like Miles, Drew, Art, Josie and so many more are good examples of this ... but it doesn't work for everyone. On a personal note ... I am unlikely to ever say that Moodle will answer all of my needs ... I will however say that it answers a chunk of them, and that as part of a larger plan it will fit in nicely. I now have the Moodle web-parts and hope to try them out in a few weeks time, so perhaps a combined system of WSS 3.0, FirstClass and Moodle will be the answer ...
budgester Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Ok ... a quick retort *against* Moodle ... perhaps a little surprising from me but there you go. but moodle does not always fit into how a school operates. I fully agree with you on this point, the same is true for all VLE's Yes, it is free to download and install ... but someone maintains it and makes sure it runs ... there, a cost. Someone creates courses and puts them on there ... another cost. Someone works on it with the students and with other users ... someone ensures that it is backed up ... that it is patched ... someone looks at new bits and redevelops how the school uses it. All are costs to the school. Moodle is not *free* ... there are costs involved ... and too many people keep shouting *Free, free, free* ... without including the small print. If you are going to say free then include the small print. I have a go about other VLEs that fail to do this so why should moodle be any different. I think we need to clear up how we are using the word free. All the costs you mentioned are going to effect pretty much any VLE someone chooses to use. Lets no forget the freedom the the gpl license gives you (this the license that moodle is under). See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html but you really need to sit down with a coffee and think about what this is saying. Moodle does not include email. Yes, there are a number of other packages out there that can be plugged in, but even the OU have not ditched their prime choice for email and conferencing yet ... FirstClass lives and is thriving at the OU and other places (Ultraversity is another FirstClass base ... and Plone is the other part!) Surely a VLE is just that, a Virtual Learning Enviroment, not an email server, or a document repository. Let the email people do email, and the VLE people do VLE's As long as you can plug in your communications solution, be it email, sms, voip etc, to your VLE. Personally I don't like DigitalBrain and I think that *anything* that the LGfL puts in will be better. Fronter is based on a similar structure to Moodle and several other VLEs, but has a number of ready to go packs that can be plugged in to it ... not including other resources that can be purchased. The VLE has to fit around the pedagogy of your school ... not the other way around. Some schools are innovative and will use the move to a Learning Platform as a chance to shake up what they do and people like Miles, Drew, Art, Josie and so many more are good examples of this ... but it doesn't work for everyone. Surely thats the point, people like those you mentioned above, are pushing the boundries of teaching and learning, and are willing to share their experiences. Can we name any high profile users of other VLE's, or can we talk to a vibrant user community. I'm not overly enlightened of the different types/methods of pedagogy but I'm pretty sure that moodle is able to flex and fit around most types, and if not you have the freedom to modify it, and then share them changes. On a personal note ... I am unlikely to ever say that Moodle will answer all of my needs ... I will however say that it answers a chunk of them, and that as part of a larger plan it will fit in nicely. I now have the Moodle web-parts and hope to try them out in a few weeks time, so perhaps a combined system of WSS 3.0, FirstClass and Moodle will be the answer ... I sure Martin from Moodle will also say that moodle isn't designed to meet all of our needs, but it surely has to be the market leading VLE. Regards Budgester
GrumbleDook Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Personally I don't like DigitalBrain and I think that *anything* that the LGfL puts in will be better. Fronter is based on a similar structure to Moodle and several other VLEs, but has a number of ready to go packs that can be plugged in to it ... not including other resources that can be purchased. The VLE has to fit around the pedagogy of your school ... not the other way around. Some schools are innovative and will use the move to a Learning Platform as a chance to shake up what they do and people like Miles, Drew, Art, Josie and so many more are good examples of this ... but it doesn't work for everyone. Surely thats the point, people like those you mentioned above, are pushing the boundries of teaching and learning, and are willing to share their experiences. Can we name any high profile users of other VLE's, or can we talk to a vibrant user community. Have a chat with the guys over on the Bodington Community about other open source VLEs ... University of Leeds, UHI, Oxford and Eton have put in a large amount of time and developer costs into creating an environment that is not Moodle, but has not had the same uptake partly due to the lack of religious fever (I should know ... I am a Mac User ... and vi ... I can spot religious fever a mile away now!) NotSchool is one of the most successful platforms for students not able to make it to school ... Ches Lincoln has been a pioneer in the use of VLEs and Learning Platforms for distance and independant learning ... and now she has almost become persona non grata at the OU because she spoke out against Moodle not meeting all the needs of the OU and that FirstClass still had a valid place. Her face no longer fitted and she questioned the direction that HE/FE institutes are taking ... the exact same way others question the direction schools are taking with MS based products. I'm not overly enlightened of the different types/methods of pedagogy but I'm pretty sure that moodle is able to flex and fit around most types, and if not you have the freedom to modify it, and then share them changes. On a personal note ... I am unlikely to ever say that Moodle will answer all of my needs ... I will however say that it answers a chunk of them, and that as part of a larger plan it will fit in nicely. I now have the Moodle web-parts and hope to try them out in a few weeks time, so perhaps a combined system of WSS 3.0, FirstClass and Moodle will be the answer ... I sure Martin from Moodle will also say that moodle isn't designed to meet all of our needs, but it surely has to be the market leading VLE. Regards Budgester But people aren't just after VLEs or Course Management Systems ... they want learning PLatforms which include more ... much more ... email, content management at a granular level with easy administration, usable for formative assessment with immedieate feedback to students, staff and manglement. Yes ... I am aware that the costs that I previously mentioned are costs that have to be covered one way or another ... some of the LP providers have those costs bundled in ... other don't and that has to be taken into consideration ... but I have listened to too many people evangelising about open source that repeatedly fail to mention the additinal costs ... training, technical and development time ... costs that may already be built into other solutions. I suppose it all boils down to jut trying to make people aware of a larger picture ...
Face-Man Posted January 16, 2007 Author Posted January 16, 2007 I to like moodle but have one big problem with it sustainability. I know of two schools that had brilliant VLE's made with moddle that have just slowly died when the "expert" left for a better job. One of them had a brilliant hand over to the new manager but they were over worked and something had to give. If you are in london this time they are not imposing the solution but allowing LA buy in (mainly through BSF) and synetrix do offer a moddle product with the added services a large company can add. Come the revolution and A true PLE that allows a student to wake up and decide if today is a good day to do their GCSE math exam online or not then we will have finally delivered on what ICT can offer.
mighty.grey.eagle Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Have a chat with the guys over on the Bodington Community about other open source VLEs ... 18 months ago at the Moodlemoot one of the Bodington developers admitted that a number of departments within Oxford University had installed Moodle. The logic being that they wanted greater control rather than follow the party line and use Bodington. On your point about a VLE not automatically fitting the pedagogy of a school - I agree but I also think that the dynamics of Moodle development provide a more fluid system. One more open to change since the thrust is coming from schools/colleges/universities.
budgester Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 But people aren't just after VLEs or Course Management Systems ... they want learning PLatforms which include more ... much more ... email, content management at a granular level with easy administration, usable for formative assessment with immedieate feedback to students, staff and manglement. That would be the holy grail :-) But slowly we are all getting there, what would be nice to see would be the examination companies, QCA etc creating the basic schemes of work as a SCORM resource. but I have listened to too many people evangelising about open source that repeatedly fail to mention the additinal costs ... training, technical and development time ... costs that may already be built into other solutions. Fully agree about the evangelising, it can get old and tired after a while. Running an free software project myself, I know about the cost of free software all to well. I also know the cost of my sanity when using non-free solutions (free = freedom) as I have been banging my head against CMIS 2.8 for a couple of weeks now. Bring on schooltool. What should be done with any project within ICT (in fact most things in life) is to make decisions based on needs and specified criteria. I suppose it all boils down to jut trying to make people aware of a larger picture ... And occasionally hitting them with a cluebat. Regards Budgester
Grommit Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Does Moodle integrate with SIMS as we want parents to check on their Children's Attendance.
webman Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 The last I heard it didn't due to Capita's £5,000 restriction on accessing "their" database.
CyberNerd Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 a way around this restriction (Moodle can access an sql database, if you know what fields to search) might be to have a nightly export from sql to e.g. mysql then have moodle access the mysql ? Have done something similar with CMIS ages ago, but now we just access the CMIS SQL directly from moodle.
mighty.grey.eagle Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Various people are working on this issue. Your local SIMS support team should give you the licence code (on request) for activating IMS. In principle this may then integrate via sharepoint into Moodle. Watch this space.
Fedaykin Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 Is this a good VLE or bad VLE ? Even tho Moodle's free does this have more features than moodle ? There's the problem, the website doesn't give much information other than the usual marketing blurb, No demo, So we can't even see what we are getting. The moodle site runs on moodle, so we can see what is possible. If you want a specific feature in fronter, you have to hope and pray that the company will find it in there interest to add it in. And when we say moodle is free, don't forget that it's not only free of cost (to acquire the software, of course there is a cost for server, maintainence etc) but it it free to do whatever you want to it. I.e. open source, (see http://www.gnu.org) so if I want to add SMS texting with a link to my MIS system I can code it up and give that away free as well. So is this a good VLE ? I really couldn't say. Is this good software ? Check out the way the links to pages on there website work, I have never seen anything quite so odd. Is there a community of thousands of people around the globe using with information and courses being shared ? Is the LGFL going to share the process of chosing the VLE ? Becta only released there recommended VLE providers a few days ago, but thats another story. Is there a range of books and companies that help with training and support ? How many other Universities and Schools use the product so that skills are transferable for staff and students ? Do you want me to go on ? probably not, I'll try and shut up now. Regards Budgester I don't doubt your enthusiasm for Moodle and knowledge about its positive features, I have never used it so can't comment. On the other hand I have been a user of Fronter for a number years and I am a bit frustrated at how your painting it in such a bad light! Is it a good VLE? - Well by in large it is, I have found it to be reliable and robust. Does it have a demo? - Yes go on there web site and sign up for access, on top of that they are always happy to put you in contact with establishments which use it to give an unbiased view. Maybe you see the links on the website as odd but frankly you get used to it. I have seen far worse from some solutions! Fronter is open source based itself and is by in large one of the largest players in the market accross Europe with millions of users. Fronter prefers the community method to drive development with healthy online forums and regular user conferences. The UK user conference is during the autumn and allows Fronter to show new features, gain feedback and take back new requirements from the users. Fronter will happily add custom features for the userbase if asked, if its not critical this is usually done during the two annual updates. In the end Fronter is the preferred solution not the only choice, from the commercial products available its one of the best available in my opinion.
webman Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 Fronter is open source based itself I find no mention of this on their website.
Fedaykin Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 Fronter is open source based itself I find no mention of this on their website. It isn't mentioned but I can assure you it is, they used to make a big thing of it a few years back but I think they feel it might scare off customers these days. It was first developed with the University of Oslo using open source software.
NetworkGeezer Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 It all depends on what you mean by open source. Having a suggestions box is not the same thing as normal open source development. For one thing you must be able to see the source code. or do they just mean that they run on Apache or they use GCC to compile sources.
GrumbleDook Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 Ok ... Fronter and Open Source What they mean is that the services run on 'open' technologoes ... basically AMP (Apache, MySql, PHP) ... I am pretty sure that they run their boxes on Red Hat too .. but would have to confirm that. As for their code that strings it all together ... yes, they do allow you to have it as a paid customer ... you are free to develop it and expand your own system but they do not recommend it as the last thing they want to do is break some of your code when they upgrade a standard feature ... but they will work on items you want and if you already have code then they would like it fed back into the community. so .. it is not 'open source' as people usually mention it .. but it is a fairly open community model ... they don't really use that as a selling point anymore either.
NetworkGeezer Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 As for their code that strings it all together ... yes, they do allow you to have it as a paid customer ... That's more like Microsoft's Shared Source scheme. you are free to develop it and expand your own system OK ...a little bit like Microsoft's Scheme
Face-Man Posted February 13, 2007 Author Posted February 13, 2007 It has been raised how did the LGFL decide on Fronter ? They ran a tender process that had a spec for more features than that of Becta (if fact I believe becta may have borrowed a few ideas). This was evaluated by 13 LEA ICT inspectors with the lesson learned from digital brain being enacted. ie more training better support tied in..... Though this mean that "schools" didn't get to have a say it did mean the process was eveulated by people who should at least know about teaching and learning (how much we can argue about but it is their job) which after all is what is important about an MLE. What fronter should do is take alot of the administration away from streched Tech support. It already link into SIMS and work is in progress with other MIS systems to mean that when a pupil is enrolled they automatically get an account and more importantly when they move school their detail can be dragged from one school to another retaining all their work. It is also intergrated so that timetable information is used so that students submitting "english" homework is seen by their english teacher and not the whole english department. And there is a limited amount of personalisation. Now I know I sound like an advert but with the BSF contracts resting in the hands of LA's I fully expect the cost saving to mean there is no Choice but to use fronter. Personally I hate this position but the goverment agender seems to be for a uniformity of service and so it is a foregone conclusion. The key is to get staff using an MLE !!
NetworkGeezer Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 It already link into SIMS and work is in progress with other MIS systems to mean that when a pupil is enrolled they automatically get an account and more importantly when they move school their detail can be dragged from one school to another retaining all their work. Really? How? Unlike Moodle, Fronter is being pushed almost entirely as a vendor hosted solution. This means that a server outside the firewall would have to contact you SIMS server inside the firewall. Or have they created some kind of client application to install at school periodially uploadd updates to servers at Fronter HQ?
Fedaykin Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 Ok ... Fronter and Open Source What they mean is that the services run on 'open' technologoes ... basically AMP (Apache, MySql, PHP) ... I am pretty sure that they run their boxes on Red Hat too .. but would have to confirm that. As for their code that strings it all together ... yes, they do allow you to have it as a paid customer ... you are free to develop it and expand your own system but they do not recommend it as the last thing they want to do is break some of your code when they upgrade a standard feature ... but they will work on items you want and if you already have code then they would like it fed back into the community. so .. it is not 'open source' as people usually mention it .. but it is a fairly open community model ... they don't really use that as a selling point anymore either. Yep thats very much it in a nutshell, if you want a feature they will do it but its not recommended. They are very open with their community of users which makes a nice change from most companies. I'm just a bit fed up with the Moodle fans painting everything that isn't Moodle as bad. Moodle is great if you have the time but in the end most schools haven't. Since Fronter got the NCSL contract they have been one of the big players in the UK market.
Grommit Posted March 8, 2007 Posted March 8, 2007 Just came from a Fronter Road show and all I can say is .... WOW... what a cool peice of software..... You really can't knock it.. Intergrates with CMIS, SIMS, Phoenix and the other one.. Soon Bromcom and Wouton Samuel And what the LGFL are offering as Support and Development it's onto a real winner..
Grommit Posted March 8, 2007 Posted March 8, 2007 It already link into SIMS and work is in progress with other MIS systems to mean that when a pupil is enrolled they automatically get an account and more importantly when they move school their detail can be dragged from one school to another retaining all their work. Really? How? Unlike Moodle, Fronter is being pushed almost entirely as a vendor hosted solution. This means that a server outside the firewall would have to contact you SIMS server inside the firewall. Or have they created some kind of client application to install at school periodially uploadd updates to servers at Fronter HQ? The LGFL are going to host their own Fronter Servers.. within Synetrix's firewall
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