SIMS Server side to be 64 bit

[localzuk]

Stupid question, what actually is different between Windows Server 2008 and Windows Server 2008? From the support aspect, they look the same etc? I know R2 has some new bits, but is there anything that might make it difficult to do dual support?

 

32bit and 64bit support. R2 is 64bit only. It is not about 'making it difficult'. It is about ensuring everything runs smoothly - adding complexity, by having different OS's (with different support end dates, different driver support, different native 32bit support etc...) it makes that more difficult.

 

Also, the 2 OS's have different interfaces... Different domain membership needs etc...

[matt40k]

Drivers etc would be the same surely? 64bit is supported for servers, so no problem there.

 

N00b question, what do you mean my different interfaces? I'm thinking you would be a secondary school, following Capita recommendation of a dedicated SIMS server, so I can't see the AD etc stuff wouldn't matter as that would be on the other server.

 

I'll give you the end-of-life bit, you almost have to have the SIMS server on it's own replacement cycle!

 

On the plus side, at least your server isn't limited to windows 2003 running 32bit!

 

Final point, how many people who are worried about a mixed environment have a "linux" server on the network?

[localzuk]

Drivers etc would be the same surely? 64bit is supported for servers, so no problem there.

 

64bit may well be supported, but r2 is not. So, if a school wishes to move their servers to 64bit r2 across the board, they would still have to maintain a 2008 one - adding complexity.

 

N00b question, what do you mean my different interfaces? I'm thinking you would be a secondary school, following Capita recommendation of a dedicated SIMS server, so I can't see the AD etc stuff wouldn't matter as that would be on the other server.

 

2008 - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0xPnZbi2QtQ/SNhbceWGi2I/AAAAAAAAFfo/rylyQlwkvyE/s400/vmware_1.0.7_windows_server_2008_1.jpg

2008 r2 - Microsoft Windows Server 2008 R2 | ZDNet Photo Gallery

 

Different taskbars, different start menus, different throughout.

 

I'll give you the end-of-life bit, you almost have to have the SIMS server on it's own replacement cycle!

 

Yes, and you shouldn't have to!

 

On the plus side, at least your server isn't limited to windows 2003 running 32bit!

 

Indeed. Although those wishing to use terminal services find themselves stuck with 32bit.

 

Final point, how many people who are worried about a mixed environment have a "linux" server on the network?

 

Personally, I don't care either way - I will support whatever is needed. The issue is that we shouldn't have to. A school should be able to install a nice shiny windows 7 64bit client, windows 2008 r2 server network without having to think 'ah, this one piece of software doesn't support 64bit windows 7, and it doesn't support 2k8 either'. It adds complexity where it should be relatively simple. Capita really needs to speed up support of new OS's. Gone are the days of having only one OS to support for 10 years. Microsoft are planning to release Windows 7's replacement in 2 years time. On Capita's scale of things, they won't be supporting it until a year later.

 

Every OS and piece of software that Microsoft make is available via beta and via early release to developers - with a pretty much finished product being available around 6 months before general release. There is no excuse for them to delay things for so long after release!

[pete]

@matt40k

Because Capita are getting slightly worse than 'Orrible wrt supporting pretty standard systems? It's not the mixed environment, it's more "It's April 2010, RTM for 2008 R2 was July 2009, what's the delay?"

[matt40k]

I don't think people know how difficult a task it is.

[localzuk]

I don't think people know how difficult a task it is.

 

We know it is difficult - but we pay them enough to do it! Other companies manage it!

[matt40k]

If Capita cut the price in half, people would still moan it's too much. SIMS is a LOT bigger then other MIS packages, with alot more legacy stuff and alot more add-ons from 3rd parties.

 

Anyone fancy re-writting Nova-T in .NET?

[localzuk]

If Capita cut the price in half, people would still moan it's too much. SIMS is a LOT bigger then other MIS packages, with alot more legacy stuff and alot more add-ons from 3rd parties.

 

Anyone fancy re-writting Nova-T in .NET?

 

Is it the customers' fault that there is a lot of legacy stuff in there? No. Sorry but I don't buy it. Capita seems to suffer from 'large company syndrome' - namely that doing anything is like making a supertanker turn around - a long and slow process.

 

Maybe they should consider something like moving to agile and scrum development methodologies?

Edited April 7, 2010 by localzuk

[pete]

SIMS is a LOT bigger then other MIS packages, with alot more legacy stuff and alot more add-ons from 3rd parties.

 

Anyone fancy re-writting Nova-T in .NET?

 

I know just how legacy certain SIMS components are (when are we getting that oft-promised System Manager rewrite?), but if they've let those components, their market share and people licensing the api for add-ons turn their development process into a lumbering dinosaur, that's their problem to fix.

[matt40k]

Lovely buzz words, still doesn't mean it's easy to keep 20,000 odd projects up-to-date.

 

Sysman7 is pending SOLUS3 P2 begin finished. Believe it's going to be the same lucky\poor development team.

[localzuk]

Lovely buzz words, still doesn't mean it's easy to keep 20,000 odd projects up-to-date.

 

Sorry, what? I'll give you an example of a giant database based piece of software, with hundreds of thousands of concurrent users - Eve-online. Yes its a game, but it still requires active development, and is massively complex. They use agile and scrum methodologies in order to ensure they get things done on time, and fast.

 

Also, 20,000? What?

[matt40k]

Agile and Scrum are just ways of working. They only help when you need to improve the way you work, Capita's problem is they need more bums on seats, ie more developers. You think a number of them are already working 6 days a week.

 

In programming terms, SIMS would be a solution, it would be made up of loads of little projects. I'm guessing around the 20,000 mark.

[localzuk]

Agile and Scrum are just ways of working. They only help when you need to improve the way you work, Capita's problem is they need more bums on seats, ie more developers. You think a number of them are already working 6 days a week.

 

In programming terms, SIMS would be a solution, it would be made up of loads of little projects. I'm guessing around the 20,000 mark.

 

My point is that they need to change the way they're working! Also, if they're not using enough developers, then that's another issue for them to deal with. There are tens of thousands of out of work developers in the UK at the moment...

 

You're throwing up excuses - there are no valid excuses, plain and simple.

[matt40k]

I'm sure Phil would be happy to send you the bill for the extra developers.

[localzuk]

I'm sure Phil would be happy to send you the bill for the extra developers.

 

They already do - via our licensing costs. I really don't understand why you're so keen on justifying Capita's slowness to support an OS which came out almost a year ago...

[Sarconia]

I'm sure Phil would be happy to send you the bill for the extra developers.

 

Have you ever seen how much Capita actually pay? I know a lot of us do it for the love of the job... But their pay scales are decidingly stingy even by Education standards.

[matt40k]

If Capita cut the price in half, people would still moan it's too much.

 

Oh, look, back here again.

 

The reason I bother to humour you with a reply, is because it's not fair you slating Capita. I've got alot of respect for them, they work extremely hard and all people (not everyone) seems to do is moan about how they've made a little mistake, which they quickly fix or how they don't instantly support that shinny new programs\os etc.

 

They are the biggest for a reason.

[localzuk]

Oh, look, back here again.

 

The reason I bother to humour you with a reply, is because it's not fair you slating Capita. I've got alot of respect for them, they work extremely hard and all people (not everyone) seems to do is moan about how they've made a little mistake, which they quickly fix or how they don't instantly support that shinny new programs\os etc.

 

They are the biggest for a reason.

 

Last I checked, the reason they're the biggest was under discussion - ie. lots of negative reasons were put forward by customers, the DCSF and Becta.

 

It is perfectly fair to slate any company I do business with, which doesn't provide what is needed. I'm not asking for 'instant' support - but 2 years after an OS has been released (as they are planning) is a bit ridiculous.

 

You appear to be blindly supporting them. Yes, they fix some issues reasonably quickly, but one good deed doesn't fix all the problems.

 

I will admit, as I have various times, that some aspects of SIMS.net are very good. But I will not sit back and allow those good aspects to tie my hands when it comes to the issues I (and others) face.

 

Just to give you some numbers. The average fee paid, according to wikipedia, is £2.50 per pupil for licensing. Now, depending on how much of the market they have - some say it is 95%, some say it is 85%. I'll go with the lower to be fair, that is £17m income a year. Now, if the company can't employ enough developers, manage new OS releases etc... and still make themselves a profit on that then they are doing something very wrong.

 

That figure doesn't include support contracts by the way - just license costs. Oh and those figures are from 2005, so won't include the large number of SLG customers they now have also.

 

Also take into account the origins of SIMS...

The origin of SIMS has been surrounded with controversy. This is due to the fact that private fortunes were made from a system developed with public money. Philip Neal (who was then working as a teacher for Lea Manor) wrote a program allowing teachers to produce computerised pupil reports. Bedfordshire then developed the scheme using thousands of pounds of its own money. The assets were then passed onto SIMS Ltd. MP Margaret Moran described this as ‘using council resources to effectively set up a private business’.

 

Tony Callaghan, the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers executive member for Bedfordshire, has branded the episode a "disgrace". A member of the council's education committee when SIMS became a private company, he told The TES: "It seems amazing to me that this was allowed to happen. I was always amazed that there wasn't a full and thorough investigation. I would like to see an investigation to see if any of that money can be retrieved and paid into the coffers of the county council, which funded the original operation."

Edited April 7, 2010 by localzuk

[sted]

Why would Windows 7 affect your choice of OS for your SIMS server? Surely you wouldn't install SIMS and AD etc on the same server? Specially with virtualization.

 

in all my primary schools they do the admin network has a server and 2 maybe 3 workstations how can you justify 2 servers for that?

[matt40k]

@sted

Would question why you have a server for 2 workstations. Central hosting could be another way forward. They're are other options.

 

Last I checked, the reason they're the biggest was under discussion - ie. lots of negative reasons were put forward by customers, the DCSF and Becta.

 

Here we go... I don't want to get into Capita "good" business methods - buying other companys etc.

 

but 2 years after an OS has been released (as they are planning) is a bit ridiculous.

Sorry? R2 hasn't been out for 2 years - July 22, 2009 (Windows Server 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Windows Server 2008 has and is supported.

 

I know a number of companies going Vista because Windows 7 isn't mature, even though they are going to be stuck with it for many, many years.

 

I stick by my statement of Capita needs more people or at least open source some of it (yes, lets start that argument!)

 

 

PS: Wonder why Capita is keeping quiet

[localzuk]

Sorry? R2 hasn't been out for 2 years - July 22, 2009 (Windows Server 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Windows Server 2008 has and is supported.

 

I based '2 years' on the comment made by Phil Neal - namely, that it won't be supported until next year. ie. 2 years.

 

I know a number of companies going Vista because Windows 7 isn't mature, even though they are going to be stuck with it for many, many years.

 

I stick by my statement of Capita needs more people or at least open source some of it (yes, lets start that argument!)

 

PS: Wonder why Capita is keeping quiet

 

Capita generally stay quiet on these issues, only appearing to correct incorrect assumptions and mistakes said by others. As I'm basing all my comments on numbers that are sourced to the Becta, and their own accounts, along with my own opinion, then there isn't much they can say to argue back (well, not without annoying me even more).

 

I agree they need more people.

 

I'm actually wondering kind of why Capita still owns SIMS.net - it doesn't seem to fit in with their core business model of 'focussing on expanding markets'. The education MIS market isn't really an expanding market... The only way they can make it expand is by introducing new products (SLG, SIMS mobile etc...), or by trying to become popular in other countries - something which will require significant investment, to topple existing systems.

[localzuk]

@sted

Would question why you have a server for 2 workstations. Central hosting could be another way forward. They're are other options.

 

Standard way many schools are set up due to the way they have spilt networks due to LEA edicts, and the admin network being managed by the LEA.

[matt40k]

Has Becta now gone the other way?

 

Didn't you see:

The Capita Group Plc ("Capita") today announces that it has acquired Ramesys (Holdings) Ltd ("Ramesys") from Lloyds Bank

[PiqueABoo]

MP Margaret Moran described this as ‘using council resources to effectively set up a private business’.

 

... not exactly the best MP to have attached to a quote like that.

 

--

 

Last time I looked 2K8 and 2K8R2 are on the same MS support lifecycle and I couldn't care less which one it is for an app server, provided it's 64bit (in-place upgradable in future if absolutely necessary).

[sted]

@sted

Would question why you have a server for 2 workstations. Central hosting could be another way forward. They're are other options.

 

 

as mentioned lea split the scopes and certain things need to be run from a certain ip address i personally like having equipment on site that way someone is responsible for it rather than it just being in the ether