Processors for consumers

[localzuk]

This problem keeps coming up at my school, people in the school look to buy a PC or laptop, then see £300 with 3GB RAM and 250GB HDD and think 'wow, amazing deal' but it has an AMD Sempron or a low end Intel Celeron in it.

 

How can consumers be expected to choose a computer when there are so many different processors to choose from now?

 

They've got

 

Intel Celeron, Intel Pentium Dual Core, Intel Core 2 Duo, Intel Core 2 Quad, Intel i3/i5/i7, (not to mention the various 'extreme' branded ones), AMD Turion X2 (Neo, Ultra), AMD Athlon (Neo and normal), AMD Sempron, AMD Phenom II, 64, Athlon II, etc... not to mention netbook processors

 

How on Earth is a consumer supposed to understand that lot?? It used to be a case of looking at processing speed (1Ghz was faster than 900Mhz etc...).

 

Now, they're also confusing matters with DDR2 and DDR3 memory, in single, dual and triple channel configurations, solid state disks and a plethora of other indecipherable nonsense to the average consumer.

 

So, when they appear in school with their 'fancy' laptop which will last them about 3 months before being slower than their old one, we are left to mop up the pieces.

[Batman]

I agree it's very annoying.

 

At the moment I have a policy of recommending Core2 duo processor as a minimum. It seems our suppliers will usually make a suggestion if they have an equivalent AMD that's a good deal anyway.

[dhicks]

So, when they appear in school with their 'fancy' laptop which will last them about 3 months before being slower than their old one, we are left to mop up the pieces.

 

But these days the processor inside a machine is pretty much irrelevant, it's the disk, RAM and OS that actually make the difference. Our 5-plus-years-old Dell machines still boot in under 10 seconds if you stick 1GB of RAM in them and do a fresh install of Windows.

 

--

David Hicks

[computer_expert]

It's very annoying.

 

My mum is looking to buy a laptop and keeps showing me various deals on laptops. I get shown the ad and most of them are celerons with the rest of the machine having an ok spec.

 

Another thing that annoys me is the amount of crap software & trials that get pre loaded with new PCs.

[Batman]

But these days the processor inside a machine is pretty much irrelevant, it's the disk, RAM and OS that actually make the difference. Our 5-plus-years-old Dell machines still boot in under 10 seconds if you stick 1GB of RAM in them and do a fresh install of Windows.

 

--

David Hicks

 

I think I can see what you're saying but I don't quite agree.

 

You can get a useable level of performance out of a lower spec PC with a memory upgrade and a reasonably light OS, and I personally would be happy with a P4 machine for general use...

... but the core 2 duo is a vast improvement performance wise over a P4, and if that's not noticeable then someone's doing something wrong!

[tmcd35]

I'd disagree, the processor inside the machine is not irrelevant. It's speed is. To a lesser extent the number of cores is (although I'd recommend more cores to more speed). But the amount of cache is vital.

 

Waste money on a processor with next to no cache and it doesn't matter how much RAM you put in the machine you've created yourself a nice little bottleneck.

 

The problem is how to explain these concepts to consumers who just see a list of numbers they don't understand.

 

I mean - 1Mb or 2Mb Cache, 1Gb or 2Gb Ram, 100Gb or 200Gb Hard drive. All this numbers seem very similar to joe average who gets home happy because he has "200 memory in his new machine" - Running Windows 7 on a single core celeron with 1Gb Ram, ouch!

[synaesthesia]

It's the same for everything though - a computer is not a toaster, for example. It's more akin to a car - without someone there to point you in the right direction, a Toyota Yaris is no different to a Volvo C70 (except the latter might not suddenly stop/accelerate without your say so ) until the salesperson points out the differences.

 

And with laptops - there's still circa 15 models of said Yaris available - what's under the hood makes all the difference and it still takes someone to explain it. "What are your plans for the laptop? What do you want to do - what would you *like* to do that perhaps you can't at the moment. Do you drive in cities or do a lot of long distance? Would you like to cart around dressers in your boot or just your handbag and the occasional body?"

 

Computers are no different. Anyone who marches off on their own accord to PC World, points at a laptop and shouts I WANT at the nearest salesperson without asking advice (OK bad example, perhaps a shop where the staff are knowledgeable would be better) will almost always walk out with something unfit for purpose unless they're otherwise clued up. Until they ask for the correct advise, be it from the store, from a knowledgeable friend or from their school's techy, they won't know that a Celeron or Semperon won't meet their needs of high end design programs, or that the I7 laptop with dual hard drives and dual graphics cards will be slight overkill for the odd facebook'n'email session. Or indeed that the pretty looking Mac in the corner won't actually do any of what they want because it doesn't actually run the library of software they already have.

 

So I don't think anything should be changed other than people's ideas - just like buying a car, you need advise from ideally impartial people first. Plenty of those around

[maniac]

What's more annoying is when they've spoken to an 'expert' at 'Insert name of high street retailer here' and they were recommended that machine, which they then subsequently bring to you because it won't run 'Insert name of latest game that teenage son wants loaded on it here' then they get all agitated when you tell them they need a better machine. People assume just because it's new, it must be better which is not necessarily the case as we know.

 

My 3yr old core 2 duo machine still boots windows faster than a majority of new machines because all the componants were hand picked to work perfectally with each other, I've no intention of changing it soon either.

[Guest theeldergeek]

...and a plethora of other indecipherable nonsense to the average consumer.

 

It's not just confusing for the consumer! I've been in IT for over 15 years now, and I'm just as confused. It used to be Pentium II or III, then IV when I was buying processors!

 

I wouldn't have a clue if I was stood in Comet and was looking to buy. I'd have to do a lot of research first.

 

I suppose, at the very least, being a tech I've got half a chance of understanding the 'lingo', but I see where you are coming from in respect of consumers.

[synaesthesia]

I will agree on one thing though - model numbers - starting with the AMD XP range where consumers were faced with a model number instead of processor speed, and then again with the modern nonsense of I5, I7, Pentium D, Pentium E4300, Core2Solo, Core2Duo etc. At least in the old days the bigger the number the faster the computer, and all the above leads to some complete marketing rubbish like "Core2Duo e6600 - 4.8GHZ!"

[localzuk]

"Core2Duo e6600 - 4.8GHZ!"

 

That drives me insane. Ebay is full of people claiming to be selling 10Ghz computers...

[witch]

I'm confused too - I know what to look for but currently I need a good laptop for my son to take to Uni in the autumn (it will be his main machine - not for taking to lectures) and the chioice is huge.

Then you get the manufacturer issue - I lean towards Dell, Lenovo, HP and Tosh, but I know there are others - and I have two VERY experienced NM friends who have COMPLETELY opposite views about Acers!

arrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhh

[joe90bass]

It's not just confusing for the consumer! I've been in IT for over 15 years now, and I'm just as confused. It used to be Pentium II or III, then IV when I was buying processors!

 

I wouldn't have a clue if I was stood in Comet and was looking to buy. I'd have to do a lot of research first.

 

I suppose, at the very least, being a tech I've got half a chance of understanding the 'lingo', but I see where you are coming from in respect of consumers.

 

Exactly how I feel - except I'm about 10 years in IT! The most difficult thing when I first started was checking whether the processor was MMX or non MMX!

[synaesthesia]

Trouble is, going back to my car example, people rarely know who to trust - they'll have the PC World/Currys bunch vs the likes of us guys typically. People who want to sell them a product vs people who actually know what's likely to be best for them, just like some car dealers. As a result it generally brings the whole profession into disrepute.

[localzuk]

Trouble is, going back to my car example, people rarely know who to trust - they'll have the PC World/Currys bunch vs the likes of us guys typically. People who want to sell them a product vs people who actually know what's likely to be best for them, just like some car dealers. As a result it generally brings the whole profession into disrepute.

 

I was always taught 'never trust the salesman'...

[synaesthesia]

Pretty much the same here, and at least these days there's no excuse - everyone has access to the internet either at home or easily at friends/family/library - a million and one people have opinions and reviews on the Internet, all within a couple of keystrokes.

 

And there it starts again - out of all the random and anonymous people on the Internet, who's opinion do you trust :|

[witch]

*OK - so, knowing the type of thing you would recommend, where would you advise people to go to buy it? I find that really hard too as the salespeople I trust aren't always best placed to provide the best prices for things like laptops, especially when someone only wants 1

 

Why do people ask your advice and then ignore it?

 

*sorry - didnt mean to hijack thread.

Edited March 13, 2010 by witch

[synaesthesia]

Think you scared them off, Witch!

 

Depends on circumstances - if they need it there and then and a local store does do it, I'll work out price differences for them and they can weigh up if the price is worth the wait. Or usefully if it's someone like PC World, they can buy online and pick up instore at the online price, which are not usually too bad.

 

I'd normally otherwise look up the model on varying sites - Dabs, Misco, Insight, Ebuyer, Scan and Aria and give them the best 3 prices. I don't tend to worry about any past problems with suppliers - they're protected by the sale of goods act and various other rules should something go wrong.

 

re Acer: I'm in the camp of "I don't like them" - after years of complaining that the build quality is below-par, things haven't changed much for the better and don't think they hold up too well in educational establishments. However, I'd rarely look elsewhere for a cheap desktop replacement.

 

I tend to swing a little towards Toshiba these days - not so much because quality is better but prices are good and they still run their warranty deal - if your laptop goes wrong within the warranty period due to manufacture defect they'll replace AND refund you. That's a fairly decent prerogative to supply a decent laptop in the first place and gives the user peace of mind.

 

And why do people ignore given advice? People are gits. If you ask an actual, unbiased expert about what they think you want, then 2 friends who's only expertise comes from seeing an advert on TV, they'll often go with the friends :|

[witch]

I couldn't scare a flea really. I expect they went off for their teas.

Still not gonna buy an Acer though!

 

I have been buying Tosh for my schools lately and are happy with them but in my heart I want a Dell - funny how you just get hooked on a make, isn't it?

I think we need a three year warranty, but that is as far as I have got.

 

Now, who shall I ask for help? The 20,000 techs I know, or little old Mrs Hathaway next door...

[synaesthesia]

At least little old Mrs Hathaway next door might recommend you a Singer typewriter - will last you 30 years before you need to replace anything

[Batman]

I don't think the problem with Acer is their build quality it's the lack of consistency in the build quality. I've seen tons of really awful Acer laptops, really flimsy, horrible to take apart if you ever need to as well. But occasionally I've been surprised... there's a teacher here who has a really nice Acer, my friend's Dad has a really good one (Core2 Duo, loads of ram, runs like stink). Quite impressed with my sister in law's Aspire One, although I hate netbooks as a general rule.

 

Their desktops tend to be fairly standard hardware, cheap and cheerful but they do the job.

 

To be honest though, I'm unlikely to ever buy one just in case I ended up with a turkey, because like I said... I think their quality between models is inconsistent.

[sted]

I don't think the problem with Acer is their build quality it's the lack of consistency in the build quality. I've seen tons of really awful Acer laptops, really flimsy, horrible to take apart if you ever need to as well. But occasionally I've been surprised... there's a teacher here who has a really nice Acer, my friend's Dad has a really good one (Core2 Duo, loads of ram, runs like stink). Quite impressed with my sister in law's Aspire One, although I hate netbooks as a general rule.

 

Their desktops tend to be fairly standard hardware, cheap and cheerful but they do the job.

 

To be honest though, I'm unlikely to ever buy one just in case I ended up with a turkey, because like I said... I think their quality between models is inconsistent.

 

acer used to build em well ive got schools with old acers that look almost new and must be 5+ years old but newer ones all ive seen are junk headphone sockets that shatter and network sockets that refuse to lock seam to be weak links and they just feel flimsy. I personally wouldnt have an acer laptop unless it was free even then id be sorely tempted to just shove it on ebay

 

Never been a huge dell fan dont dislike them either but ive seen schools with great dells and other with junky ones.

 

For a personal laptop id go asus my 6 year old one is still going strong (more ram and bigger hdd) but its never missed a beat (exuding normal windows issues) and is built like a tank not pretty but solid biggest issue i had was the badge fell off.

 

Current laptop is a hp and had major issues with warranty was a month old an one off the hdds had issues they had it for 2 months before replacing it but since the replacement arrived (and i managed to end up with 2 batteries/psus/tv cards/mce remotes) again i haven't had a problem and it still gets better windows ratings than some of the new machines ive seen, but ive sent less esoteric more mainstream hps back and been impressed with speed of warranty so i guess my problem was down to having a low volume laptop though im ure they could just of shipped me a sata drive

[Arthur]

How can consumers be expected to choose a computer when there are so many different processors to choose from now?

Manufacturers build laptops to target specific price points which means consumers only have a limited selection of processors to choose from within a given price range. You will never find a Core i7 in a £300 laptop for example. Even worse is the fact that PC World et al. all stock a very limited range of laptops in store which invariably means the typical consumer will almost always end up with an overpriced shoddy or slow laptop bundled with tons of crapware which for some bizarre reason they never uninstall.

 

Considering Acer sells almost 25% of all PCs within the UK it is pretty clear that consumers value price over quality.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Arthur

[tmcd35]

Even worse is the fact that PC World et al. all stock a very limited range of laptops in store

Not to defend the company (or their sales practices), I would say that PC World offer quiet an impressive range of laptops for a 'bricks and mortar store'. Prices have become more reasonable in recent years as they've been forced to compete with the Internet. If you know what you want and you want it today you've only got to get passed the silly sales guy who won't give up trying to sell you an extended warranty.

 

Considering Acer sells almost 25% of all PCs within the UK it is pretty clear that consumers value price over quality.

 

I wonder what percentage of that 25% are from Dixons Stores exclusive brands (rebadged Acers) like E-Machines or Packard Bell. Now that's a scary thought.

[AyatollahPies]

A Celeron M 1.5Ghz and a 1GB of RAM is more than enough for 99% of computer users.

 

Facebook and Twitter do not require fast processors. Perhaps I'm just being cynical.