Intelligent design?

[featured_spectre]

Apologies for making it sound as if you guys were trolls, thats not my intention, but I have seen this sort of thing descend into chaos and I would not like that to happen here.

 

I too would like to hear peoples theological points of view on this sort of thing though, as for the evolution, try not to think of it in years, but in generations.

 

In "theory" it took 60'000 generations to go from Ape to current Man....which in the scale of things is roughly 2.1 - 2.7 million years give or take.

[tmcd35]

Aw can't believe I've been in a meeting all morning and missed this Oh hum - I can wade in now

 

Surely the main evidence of intelligent design could be said to be the fact that whilst our brain certainly isnt the biggest, it IS the most functional, and allows us to reason and create in a way that is beyond any other living creature on earth (except possibly the dolphins )

 

An arguement for natural selection perhaps?

 

I find it very interesting that many people merrily believe (which actually cannot be proven only surmised) that at at one point in time the whole of matter including all planets and everything on them (buildings/people/animals/mountains/oceans/the whole kit and kaboodle) was so small that it would be smaller than a single electron...

 

And yet they find the concept of a virgin birth and creation difficult to comprehend...

 

"And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

For those unsure - I'm more swayed by the arguement towards evolution and natural selection than I am by intelligent design. I'd admit that something doesn't sit quite right with the big bang theory. However as Hamlet was trying to point out - we are but small spec in an infinite universe. There are more wonderous things out there than we can know or dream.

[solitaire89]

Smaller than a single electron is a bit of an exaggeration!

 

Actually it isn't It is thought that at the point of the big bang, matter was at around that size...

 

isnt the virgin birth actually an error in translation

 

I wasn't meaning that particularly literally, it was an example of what people use for why they don't believe Christianity is right - "they're fools, they believe in a virgin birth"... you get my point?!

 

One is based on observation and evidence. One is based on a game of chinese whispers in book form...

 

And yet how many lay people who do believe that have read the full theory of the big bang, and how many who say Christainity is wrong know that factually, backed up from non-religious texts and records that there was a man who claimed to be the son of God, performed unexplained actions (magic or miracle withstanding), he was crucified, his body disappeared from his guarded grave and he was then seen again?

 

All of the above is not meant to offend/insite riot Just to promote discussion on:

 

an interesting topic

[cookie_monster]

However as Hamlet was trying to point out - we are but small spec in an infinite universe. There are more wonderous things out there than we can know or dream.

 

 

Look you're all just figments of my imagination

[solitaire89]

Look you're all just figments of my imagination

 

Nah, you're all a figment of mine.....

[ICT_GUY]

No one would have believed in the last years of the nineteenth century that this world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own; that as men busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scrutinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. With infinite complacency men went to and fro over this globe about their little affairs, serene in their assurance of their empire over matter. It is possible that the infusoria under the microscope do the same. No one gave a thought to the older worlds of space as sources of human danger, or thought of them only to dismiss the idea of life upon them as impossible or improbable. It is curious to recall some of the mental habits of those departed days. At most terrestrial men fancied there might be other men upon Mars, perhaps inferior to themselves and ready to welcome a missionary enterprise. Yet across the gulf of space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us.

[gwendes]

#DUM DUM DUM#

[tmcd35]

No one would have believed in the last years of the nineteenth century that this world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own; that as men busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scrutinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. With infinite complacency men went to and fro over this globe about their little affairs, serene in their assurance of their empire over matter. It is possible that the infusoria under the microscope do the same. No one gave a thought to the older worlds of space as sources of human danger, or thought of them only to dismiss the idea of life upon them as impossible or improbable. It is curious to recall some of the mental habits of those departed days. At most terrestrial men fancied there might be other men upon Mars, perhaps inferior to themselves and ready to welcome a missionary enterprise. Yet across the gulf of space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us.

 

ah-hem, time for my singing voice. "doh", "doh", "doh-ra-me"

 

right -

 

"The chances of anything coming from Mars was a million to one they said! The chances of anything coming from Mars was a milltion to one - but still they come"

 

[localzuk]

And yet how many lay people who do believe that have read the full theory of the big bang, and how many who say Christainity is wrong know that factually, backed up from non-religious texts and records that there was a man who claimed to be the son of God, performed unexplained actions (magic or miracle withstanding), he was crucified, his body disappeared from his guarded grave and he was then seen again?

 

I will admit that most people don't read things fully, that's just humans for you. But on the issue of proving Christianity is wrong, that isn't the point. How can someone prove that someone didn't exist from a time when the only records that were kept were religious texts that aren't verifiable, and have been altered through the ages due to mistranslations etc...

 

Saying that is like me saying 'prove that the Egyptians weren't aided in their construction of the pyramids by visiting Aliens. Or prove that the Sumerians weren't visited by aliens and their pictographs are just art work or something. It isn't possible to do that. What we can do is create theories based on evidence that we *do* have.

[Hightower]

On a similar note, has any watched the Gervais film 'The Invention of Lying'? Terrible terrible film, but made me chuckle when he read out the 'list' of things he knows about the 'Man in the sky'.

 

Man in the sky forbid hehe

[solitaire89]

What we can do is create theories based on evidence that we *do* have.

 

I agree entirely!

 

...a time when the only records that were kept were religious texts

 

Aren't the Romans one of the first who kept secular records? Census records, minutes from important meetings and the like? I'm not talking about the Bible here.

[tmcd35]

If I was religious, I'd think about diversifying my portfolio.

 

How would one go about choosing?

 

List of religions and spiritual traditions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

What I always found funny was how meny boil down to being just branches of Judaism. That includes the various barnchs of Christianity (both Catholic and Protestant) and the various Islamic religions.

 

All these religious people all believe in the same God and yet they insist on fighting about wether or not someone was alive over 2000 years ago and what he may or may not have said. Very strange. If thats religion you can keep it thanks!

[localzuk]

Aren't the Romans one of the first who kept secular records? Census records, minutes from important meetings and the like? I'm not talking about the Bible here.

 

Indeed they were an organised civilisation, however their records didn't really last well (imagine our old paper records surviving several thousand years, in an ever changing climate... they wouldn't).

 

So, the only records we have really are those of historians throughout the ages who picked up the works of other historians, and at the time, Christianity and 'Jesus Christ' would have been nothing more than a cult and would not likely have been important enough for a historian to document.

 

So, we end up with a partial picture, and the Bible.

[Hightower]

If thats religion you can keep it thanks!

 

You are right - religion is like that for some people. But for me just because I believe in something different to the next man it's nothing to fight over.

 

Not all people can be placed in the same boat/aeroplane/vessel of choice

[sted]

Indeed they were an organised civilisation, however their records didn't really last well (imagine our old paper records surviving several thousand years, in an ever changing climate... they wouldn't).

 

So, the only records we have really are those of historians throughout the ages who picked up the works of other historians, and at the time, Christianity and 'Jesus Christ' would have been nothing more than a cult and would not likely have been important enough for a historian to document.

 

So, we end up with a partial picture, and the Bible.

 

not 100% true things can last there are i believe babylonian scrolls that are still readable and for that matter the writing on the pyramids and other documentation. Even paper can survive i was watching some programme on tv the other night where so library on the desert had books thousands of years old still readable (though granted fragile)

 

but yes its a skewed point of view if nothing else history is written by the victors and any evidence they dont want put forward tends to dissapear

[localzuk]

not 100% true things can last there are i believe babylonian scrolls that are still readable and for that matter the writing on the pyramids and other documentation. Even paper can survive i was watching some programme on tv the other night where so library on the desert had books thousands of years old still readable (though granted fragile)

 

but yes its a skewed point of view if nothing else history is written by the victors and any evidence they dont want put forward tends to dissapear

 

The Romans didn't use scrolls - which have quite thick parchment or papyrus as their medium (well they did at first, but decided they were cumbersome), they developed the 'Codex' which used much thinner paper for its pages - which stands the test of time much less well.

 

However, regardless of that, the point remains - there remains very little of Roman codices and as far as I'm aware, no mention of Jesus in any of them.

[mossj]

I don't have the time to read all this thread... but I will put in my 2 cents...

 

Personally I see religion as a way to reason with the unreasonable... and I find it interesting the different ways religions look at the same things...

 

I certainly will never belittle anyones faith, in whatever they believe in and if someone approaches me and offers me a chance to see what there religion is about I take it... I have been Catholic, Church of England and Sikh so far.

 

p.s I once woke up drunk in germany with a mormen panflet, and my friends telling me I had discussed religion and the existance of god with a group of canadian nuns...

Edited February 9, 2010 by mossj

[gwendes]

Can't explain my position on all of this more beautifully than Tim Minchin...

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s]YouTube- Storm by Tim Minchin (with text)[/ame]