BSF question about timing of managed service take over.

[Grommit]

 

In reference what Rusdev said earlier about contacting the bidders direct I would be very carful about doing this as the people around BSF (LA's ,The DFES,etc) are taking the biding process very seriously and thrown upon bidders possibly being given different information to each other and insist it should go through one source.

 

Yes this is true..

 

I have just come from a County BSF ICT Consultation Meeting

 

The BEAST COMMETH

 

The Counties under Government guidelines are using a preferred bidder system and working the (proposed) Managed Services Companies against each other until they get the best bid.

 

Then this company will take over the entire County

 

As for the Schools ICT Managers ... they will cease to exist as the School will be managed by the Managed Service Company..

 

if you are kept on you will be basically a toner cartridge or projector bulb replacement person as you will not be given any access rights to the servers or other hight level systems.. so therefore your skill-set will be going down the toilet and after a few years you employment prospects will diminish (no ISA, No Exchange, No Server 2003, No SIMS, No Terminal Services, No RIS configuration etc etc)

 

There is no way out of this as it is a government instruction .. if the School wants the millions to rebuild ICT under the BSF they must outsource to some bloated company... if they want to keep the ICT In house they must reject the millions of pounds..

 

I believe that the first phase was either Wolverhampton or Manchester and that Ramsys won these are now taking over the schools..

 

As I was told a month ago.. Its coming .. it cannot be stopped and it will change the way ICT is run in the schools (ie some fat bloated company getting our jobs)

 

So the only way that the ICT staff will keep their jobs is either they get taken on by the Managed Service Providor or the Head teacher makes a New Role for the Technical Staff

 

BECTA and The DfES state clearly that ICT MUST be managed by a Service Providor.. no if ands or buts

 

Where are the unions ?

[webman]

Exactly. If they got rid of teachers like they are with support staff WWIII would break out.

[russdev]

Yes in hind sight i meant more we all have contacts we all know front runners to these bids do bit of 'networking'

 

arr yes technical support will be managed by company but role of devloping ict in the school will not be

 

Key here is role can be found to keep you in school if that is what you both want..

 

Russell

[CyberNerd]

The Counties under Gov guidelines are using a preferred bidder system and working the Managed Services Companies against each other until they get the best bid.

 

Not strictly true. Its not up to the county to decide on the best bid. The county is allowed to bid itself and keep the service inhouse - and retain the money.

AFIK Its up to UK partnerships PLC to decide - a commercial company with commercial interests - I'm sceptical as to whether they'll award any contracts to inhouse ICT services though.

[broc]

If your LA mounts an in-house bid it will have to stand the test against private bidders. Partnership for Schools can 'dictate' who gets the business, even though the LA may judge the in-house bid is best value.

 

I was told by a Partnership for Schools consultant that inhouse-bids were not the preferred approach, and they did not expect many to succeed. At a meeting I attended with a number of other schools the LA ICT people were asked to leave the meeting briefly while the consultant asked the audience if they thought the LA ICT team was 'up to' the task of managing the service! There was a mixed response

 

This has serious implications for Education ICT support teams in the LA, and potentially primary schools too. How many primary schools get their support 'informally' from their local secondary, or from their LA Education ICT support team? If these are all merged into a single organisation motivated by profit you can see what will happen.......

[Face-Man]

I've been looking into BSF quite a bit and think what is going to happen is bog standard ICT. This will be good for school that have nightmare system but bad for thouse that are using cutting edge. The only way to avoid this is to get involved in the writing of the spec for the bidding process.

 

The template can be found at

 

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/_doc/6372/LEP%20ICT%20spec%20v3.doc

 

I would suggest that we use edugeeks to improve this document and also use our skill to point out prcaticallities from it. For instance every teacher is to have a laptop to control their whiteboards and work from home but what happens about supply teachers ? the school is surpossed to have on site 1 memeber of technical staff (ict technitian) for every 200 pupils I would love to have that kind of ratio now. The bidder has to integrate existing ICT systems (especailly admin) into the new setup but if school a use X software and school b uses Y how is that going to happen. The only downtime is between 00:00 saturday to 06:00 sunday

 

My plan is to make my job esestial to the bidding process raising my profile with the LEA and School. So that anyone that wins will need me or the LEA will need me to hit the contractor over the head for not doing what it says.

 

BSF is coming (after all what Head is going to ignor more money) we have to alline our rolls to achieve what we want.

[CyberNerd]

If your LA mounts an in-house bid it will have to stand the test against private bidders. Partnership for Schools can 'dictate' who gets the business, even though the LA may judge the in-house bid is best value.

 

Partnerships for Schools == Partnerships UK PLC

 

They are incharge of the bidding process. Majer shareholders incluse Capita amongst others.

[Geoff]

QUANGO's rock.

[alexknight]

The question is why haven't the unions got involved already?

 

It is clear to me that County Councils are going to outsource wholesale, with the view to reducing 'wage costs', and in return getting a 'professional level of service'.

 

What the councils fail to realise is that they already get a professional service at a laughable cost.

 

A question comes to my head is this. Do the councils think that because they pay peanuts, they have got a load of monkeys working for them?

 

Do they think that long term it will save shedloads of money because theere will be less overheads such as NI, pension provision etc. So lets just go private and let them pay for it all??

 

They may think that if they pay a lot of money this equates to better service levels.

 

If this is the case they need to wake up and smell the roses because at present they have;

 

1. Loyal employees that do the job for peanuts and with very little training because they like making a difference.

 

2. Usually excellent service levels that would most probnably surpass any service level that 'outsourced' companies could provide.

 

3. Local knowledge of the schools system, hence providing a tailored service at very little cost, and a more effcieient service.l

 

What they will get is;

 

1. A company whose focus is on profits, not edcuation.

 

2. A company who will send whoever out to the school who will spend ages orienteering themselves before actually comencing work.

 

3. Reduced service levels as time =money.

 

4. Once established and running the whole set up be stung later on as they will all wake up to how much is going to cost.

 

5. Have massive cost hikes as there will be a reluctance to change formulas/companies.

 

6. Once and if the money dries up so will the levels of service and companies that wish to bid. The schools then being left with another mess to clear up which theyu have absolutly know control over. May take a few years but mark my words.

 

Perhaps some of us techies should use this golden goose opportunity to start companies up to bid for the projects??

 

Just a thought.

 

In the meantime we need to contact the unions to see what our redundancies/futures are going to be like?

 

Alex

[CyberNerd]

Sadly to get a successful ICT bid you need to be BECTA accredited - this means you need to have millions (don't know exact figure) in the bank, and would probably have to 'sweeten' becta to get in their goodbooks.

 

Best chance is if our LEA's got successful bids, but as previously mentioned partnerships uk PLC isn't in this business - they get paid for outsourcing.

 

Just another govt ICT F*** up IMO, sounds good on paper but it just isn't the reality of how things work atm. The only thing to be certain of is that things will change and probably the voters will generally be supportive - look how many millions we've spent on hardware to run teh microsoft.........

Can't imaging teachers will be all that supportive though, maybe if Unison won't do anything the teachers unions could ?

How about a national "sorry we shut the countries educational ICT systems down in protest day" hehe [/subversive]

[tosca925]

How does this affect a school that is a trust school?

[wesleyw]

Actually I'm sure you could start up a compnay with decent propects say your are looking to become the outsource for several LEA's and go the bank for the money they tend to smell a profit too! You'd need prvate and public liability insurance and a good business plan but it would work and as for becta accreditation that can't be too hard as long as you can prove you've got experience and a good sized team and money in the bank?

 

 

 

Wes

[alexknight]

Hey, Edugeek.

 

Imagine starting up a company that can provide outsourced IT provision?

 

Edugeek UK Ltd ????

 

Perfect timing and a golden opportunity, after all you already have most of the IT support provision personnel as members of this sight.

 

It would be something that I would be interested in exploring?

 

Anyone else interested?

 

Alex

[CyberNerd]

I like the idea in priniple and I'm sure we could come up with a sound technical plan without too much flaming, but being able to prove (with 3yrs worth of accounts) that we are financially viable to provide a 20 odd million pound service would be kind of difficult considering the current BETT funs

[Grommit]

Yes in hind sight i meant more we all have contacts we all know front runners to these bids do bit of 'networking'

 

arr yes technical support will be managed by company but role of devloping ict in the school will not be

 

Key here is role can be found to keep you in school if that is what you both want..

 

Russell

 

My dear Russ Dev... not all of us are uber network mangers with the scope and skill to assist in the curriculum development of the school and planning and developing the strategy of the ICT rollout for the future..

 

A lot of use are very good ICT managers who do a brilliant job of keeping the Network running, Backed up and up to date with the latest Hardware and software..

 

Some of us leave the developing the ICT role in the school up to the ICT coordinator (a senior teacher) who understands the curriculum needs of the school and passes this onto the Network Manager to implement..

 

So basically all there very good ICT managers are going to lose their jobs unless they take on a more desk/academic based role... and if you think that's something to wink at then......

[broc]

The question is why haven't the unions got involved already?

 

It is clear to me that County Councils are going to outsource wholesale, with the view to reducing 'wage costs', and in return getting a 'professional level of service'.

 

Alex

 

The unions are involved, if you check the Unison website you should find some BSF related documents. However, from my local Unison branches viewpoint, keeping the ICT support 'in-house' as part of in-house LA bid would be considered a victory by the union.

 

You won't find a business case to say outsourcing school ICT will save money; I don't think all the County Councils necessarily want wholesale outsourcing either, however I have a suspicion that some LA are preparing in-house bids as a means of regaining control of schools ICT and as a useful way justifying & maintaining their LA Education ICT organisations, albeit at the expense of the schools. This flies in the face of LMS and the recent Education white paper which advocates more independence for schools.

 

Selfishly setting aside the issue of what would be best for our schools for a moment, I am left wondering which would be worse, being outsourced to work for an LA central ICT organisation, or to a 'professional' private ICT company?

 

Judging by what I read on Edugeek, I often think there is not much love lost between school ICT staff & their LA support teams, or much mutual confidence in their respective abilities either?

 

Perhaps we should have a poll? Given the apparent inevitability of outsourcing, would you prefer to be part of an LA team, or work for a private company?

[Grommit]

The Counties under Gov guidelines are using a preferred bidder system and working the Managed Services Companies against each other until they get the best bid.

 

Not strictly true. Its not up to the county to decide on the best bid. The county is allowed to bid itself and keep the service inhouse - and retain the money.

AFIK Its up to UK partnerships PLC to decide - a commercial company with commercial interests - I'm sceptical as to whether they'll award any contracts to inhouse ICT services though.

 

i am sorry this is not true now.. It was true in the previous wave, if you made a Vision Statement and a GOOD business Case then you could keep in house ... but the loophole has been closed

 

if you read the BSF documentation .. it states that the ICT has to be service managed and I know of PFS areas that have been taken over and ALL these schools are now run by ***** and the ICT staff retrenched or assimilated into ***** to become low paid drones..

 

It all has to do with economies of scale... the more schools taken on the cheaper the school becomes to run... IE:- 1 drone can Remote into all schools servers where as it is now 1 ICT Manager to 1 School

 

The BORG are coming and if you are not an uber Consultant ICT manager you are in for a tough ride

[broc]

 

It all has to do with economies of scale... the more schools taken on the cheaper the school becomes to run... IE:- 1 drone can Remote into all schools servers where as it is now 1 ICT Manager to 1 School

 

 

It has nothing to do with cost, even though you might think that outsourcing would be cheaper.

 

The managed service will cost a school between £90-£120 per student (PFS figures recently quoted) per year, for a minimum of 5 years. There is no published, documented business case which argues the managed service will be cheaper. The reason behind the managed service is to deliver a 'bog' standard ICT environment to all schools, following the 'one size fits all' dogma found elsewhere in Government today.

[CyberNerd]

The unions are involved, if you check the Unison website you should find some BSF related documents. However, from my local Unison branches viewpoint, keeping the ICT support 'in-house' as part of in-house LA bid would be considered a victory by the union.

 

I don't see much involvment at all by Unison. Unison are not focused on BSF (esp ICT) and haven't realised the implications for their members. Clearly they would be making a huge fuss if they had, all I see is a document about how to exclude 'soft services' which ICT is not eligable. BSF ICT is introduced in the most sneakiest of ways. Probably time to write to Unison central and hope for some focus by them.

[Grommit]

I am also thinking that would the BETT show exist in 5 years times as if the majority of the schools in the country are taken over by a few ICT companies and all the ICT is run by them .. what need would there be for BETT... or BETT as big as it is

 

ie:- as RM would have thier own managed services and would not buy anythig apart their own products

[CyberNerd]

ie:- as RM would have thier own managed services and would not buy anythig apart their own products

 

Monopoly stifles innovation.

[Grommit]

ie:- as RM would have thier own managed services and would not buy anythig apart their own products

 

Monopoly stifles innovation.

 

Well thats the route we are going down now... BIG Companies running ICT in Schools and supplying their own merchandise

[GrumbleDook]

As for BSF, there are enough big name schools that will still employ their own staff and will rely on them for innovation.

 

If we look at how innovation progresses in schools we look at the movement towards specialisms ... and now schools are moving to 2 or 3 specialisms ... and there will be schools that have specialisms in everything ... which may ome across as a ... erm ... comprehensive.

 

I know people may have good and successful jobs doing the job of a network manager or technician but there is an unfortunate move to centralised services. Don't ask me why ... the arguements that have be put forward come across a little ropey and are based around setting a baseline for schools ... but I cannot really find any decent research that that proves that is makes a school more successful, but I can show you many occasions when having a network manager or group of technicians that are looking at new and resourceful ways of using ICT to inprove teaching & learning actually has an impact in the classroom.

 

If Russ or I come across a little heavy handed with "learn to adapt to a more proactive role in education" it is only because we are looking to find ways to beat the system. I know of a few members that have already been told that come BSF their jobs are safe, that the school will pay lip service to to idea but the school needs the staff in-house because of the service they provide.

 

I have no problem with Becta setting a baseline ... as long as it is not the be all and end all and too many LAs / RBCs take it as such ... and this is a long arguement to fight ... both politically and technically. The more people who can give us examples of making a positive difference to schools other than just buying kit then all the better.

[Grommit]

Yes what you say is all very well and good..... but the bottom line is that thousands and thousands of ICT Managers and Technicians are going to lose thier jobs unless something is done soon.

 

How about telling us how to be more proactive

 

Do we have a contact in BECTA ?

[CyberNerd]

If we re-assert ourselves as some sort of 'educational technologists' we'll either be in a legally tentative position (by not having pgce's which is required if the majority of the job is teaching in a school) or we'll have de-skilled ourselves enough to be tupe'd as classroom assistants. - I don't see the way forward in your suggestion.