Windows licence for bootcamp installation

[chinesewhispers]

I'm getting confused and frustrated.

 

Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

 

What is the cheapest way to get Windows (XP) on our Macs (currently 52 of them, expanding to 70 maybe)?

 

Here's where I am at.

 

1. To install Windows on a Mac, I need a valid Windows licence.

2. To install Windows on a Mac, I have to install it alongside the Mac OS, not instead of.

3. There is a VL upgrade path available using certain base 'qualifying operating systems'.

4. Apple Macintosh is listed as a 'qualifying operating system'.

5. An alternative is to purchase software assurance for the VL upgrade.

6. An alternative is to purchase full licences not available in VL.

7. If I have active Software Assurance, I do not need to uninstall the qualifying OS.

 

All our existing clients have XP OEM licences stuck to them, so I believe that putting all of them under Software Assurance (to fulfil 7.) would not really be a wise financial decision at the moment (we aren't currently looking to upgrade the client OS).

 

How do fact 4 and 2 work when the qualifying OS must be removed to be valid (unless under a Student Select agreement). In fact, how is point 4 even valid, when it is required in point 2?

 

My 3 o'clock just arrived, I'll be back to this, but if anyone has any info in the meantime...

 

Thanks

[tmcd35]

This is my understanding of the MS minefield that is licensing...

 

1. Correct. To install Windows on any system, including virtual machines, require a valid license.

 

2. No. If you find a way there is nothing in either Apples of M$ license terms that I'm aware of that is stopping you whipping OS X and replacing it with Windows

 

3. Correct the Select, Select Plus and Academic licenses are sold us upgrades to qualifying OS's. OS X is a qualifying OS (enter debate as to weither Windows is an 'upgrade' to OS X - I think not, more like a downgrade )

 

4. yep, see above

 

5. Not sure were Software Assurance came from? Software Assurance gives you access to any future upgrades Microsoft release. Say they decide to release Windows 8 next year.

 

6. You're two choices, that I see, are

i. Select/Select+/Academic upgrade license and replace OS X with windows

ii. Full Product License to run Windows either in a VM or via Bootcamp alongside OS X.

iii. If you are buying new Macs then at the time of purchase you *may* get away with purchasing OEM licences that will then enable you to run Windows in a VM or via Bootcamp.

 

7. Erm, no. Software Assurance allows you to upgrade to the latest available version of the OS. You would still have to uninstall the original qualifying OS.

 

Also under the Select/Select+ agreement you can pick and choose which PC's have SA. You buy SA with the OS License at time of purchase. So you could buy 5 licenses with SA and 5 without. Then only half the 10 machines would get Windows 8 upgrades (assuming Windows 8 is released during the life-time of the SA).

[chinesewhispers]

OK, back from my appointment, and thanks for the reply. Here goes more head scratching:

 

2. I didn't mean the licences say I have to install alongside, but:

i) I wouldn't want to get rid of OSX, I want to use it;

ii) I didn't think there was a way to do a bare metal install of Windows on a Mac (without VM or BC)

 

So installing Windows as an upgrade means replacing the existing OS, which isn't possible due to 2.ii ?

 

5. My current reseller has told me that software assurance is one of the 2 options I have (the other being a VL upgrade, but technically that can't happen due to 2.ii) I would be buying Win7 software assurance licences at approx £90 and using the downgrade option to WinXP. I think these are cheaper alternative to buying the full product.

 

6.i) Not possible due to 2.ii

ii) Possible only option

iii) This is a new one, how do I get an OEM Windows licence when buying a Mac? This would be perfect if it is possible.

 

7. I refer to this page which my reseller directed me to (my reseller isn't sure either btw, even after speaking with MS): Product Points

 

Note the points:

Qualifying OS Rules (Each of these conditions must be met in order for the base OS to qualify you for the VL Upgrade.):

The qualifying OS must be installed on the device to which the VL Upgrade license is to be assigned.

Except as provided below, you must remove the qualifying Operating System from the device in order to deploy the VL Upgrade license.

Customers who wish to install or run more than one licensed OS at one time (including the qualifying OS), may either:

acquire Software Assurance for their VL Upgrade license, or

purchase full Windows 7 licenses separately. We do not offer full OS licenses in Volume Licensing.

Customers that have active Software Assurance coverage do not need to uninstall the qualifying OS and may install and run the qualifying OS and Windows 7 at the same time.

 

So, what does 'as provided below' refer to, and an 'active Software Assurance' mean exactly?

 

Am I making this too complicated for myself, or just being stupid?

[john]

I would say (as I got lost in all that info and confusion) that if you want XP Pro on your Apple Macs you need the following:

 

1x per Apple x OEM Licence for a suitable, cheap EG XP Home,system to upgrade from (IF you have a Volume Agreement EG Select or Schools to go from say XP Home to Vista Business, Win 7 or XP Pro)

 

OR

1x per Apple x OEM XP Pro or Vista Business Pro OEM Licence if you have no Volume Agreement. You will need to get Vista ones now as XP ones have near enough gone in most places, you can downgrade Vista Business Edition to XP Pro.

[tmcd35]

Hi Chinesewhispers,

 

Told you M$ licensing is a minefield! Wasn't aware of the clause with SA. Personally I'd say the Select/Select+ VL with SA would be your safest and cheapest solution.

 

The OEM was an Idea but to be honest it's a bit dodgy and you may not be correctly licensed going down that route. Officially Apple would have to supply you with Win7 OEM, can't see that happening. You may be able to convince a reseller to sell you a OEM copy with a new Mac purchase.

 

1 Thing £90 for Win7 with SA sounds pricy to me. Is this an education purchase? If so I believe the price should be close to £38. Or atleast thats what I just paid for Win7 Enterprise Edition with SA.

[chinesewhispers]

This is indeed for a high school.

 

These will be the only client OS under an agreement so far (all the rest are OEM COA on the boxes). Will that affect the pricing I am getting, or do I need another reseller.

 

Essentially then, I need to buy (at the best price) full licences with downgrades rights for UK education?

[john]

If you are not wanting a Volume Agreement, then you need as far as I can remember and know, a best price OEM Licence for Windows XP Pro, Windows Vista Business or Windows 7 Pro. All of those allow you to downgrade to XP Pro no issues as far as I remember.

[chinesewhispers]

I don't mind having a volume agreement, just that I don't have one already. There'll be 52 clients initially, then a further 16, followed possibly by another 10, so up to 80ish max by Xmas.

[torledo]

I would say (as I got lost in all that info and confusion) that if you want XP Pro on your Apple Macs you need the following:

 

1x per Apple x OEM Licence for a suitable, cheap EG XP Home,system to upgrade from (IF you have a Volume Agreement EG Select or Schools to go from say XP Home to Vista Business, Win 7 or XP Pro)

 

OR

1x per Apple x OEM XP Pro or Vista Business Pro OEM Licence if you have no Volume Agreement. You will need to get Vista ones now as XP ones have near enough gone in most places, you can downgrade Vista Business Edition to XP Pro.

 

you don't need to purchase a windows OEM license to install a windows xp vlk on a mac. last time i checked.

 

if you've got an xp volume license as part of something like a select agreement you should be good to go.

[john]

you don't need to purchase a windows OEM license to install a windows xp vlk on a mac. last time i checked.

 

if you've got an xp volume license as part of something like a select agreement you should be good to go.

Not when I checked, as the Volume is only an Upgrade Licence you cannot Mass-Licence OEM or Retail, and as your not upgrading from Mac OS to it you are doing an additional install I was under the impression you need either Retail or OEM

[tmcd35]

Not when I checked, as the Volume is only an Upgrade Licence you cannot Mass-Licence OEM or Retail, and as your not upgrading from Mac OS to it you are doing an additional install I was under the impression you need either Retail or OEM

 

This would be my reading of the rules, however Software Assurance (see Chinesewhispers post above) seems to negate the need for a retail or oem copy. In theory VLK+SA is all that is needed to run Windows on Mac in a VM or Bootcamp.

[torledo]

Not when I checked, as the Volume is only an Upgrade Licence you cannot Mass-Licence OEM or Retail, and as your not upgrading from Mac OS to it you are doing an additional install I was under the impression you need either Retail or OEM

 

i'm fairly confident your mistaken.

 

I can't remember whether the correct licensing information was available on the microsoft site or the apple site, but i distinctly remember reading that windows xp volume license [the question may be one of which paricular volume license variey as tmcd35 points out] did not require the purchase of an oem license when installed on an intel mac. And as bootcamp is effectively the defacto method of installing windows on a mac, then the fact you aren't 'upgrading from mac os [in other words wiping the whole disk and replacing with windows] is irrelevant.

 

it's a bit late for me to find the info, but if you do a search i'm sure you'll find it. Unless it's now out of date, but i doubt it.

[torledo]

ok, here's the blurb. as of oct 08.

 

Microsoft permits the Apple Mac operating system to be a qualifying full operating system as part of its Volume Licensing program. Customers who have a license for an Apple Mac OS operating system can purchase the Windows Vista Business Upgrade License for their Apple Mac OS computer. Customers may obtain the media and install the full Windows OS software under the Volume Licensing Upgrade license.

 

 

Licensing requirements for running Windows on an Apple Mac depends on the use scenarios.

 

 

Scenario 1: Installing and running Windows as a second full operating system under Apple Boot Camp on an Apple Mac: Windows may be installed as a second full OS on an Apple Mac using Apple Boot Camp (that comes with Apple OS X 10.5 “Leopard”) in addition to the already installed Mac OS. To acquire the necessary Windows software license to accommodate this scenario, the customer has two options. Both options allow the customer to keep the Mac operating system on the computer.

 

 

Purchase Software Assurance with the Volume Licensing Upgrade license for the Mac. Customers who acquire Software Assurance with the Volume Licensing Upgrade license are not required to first remove the qualifying OS (for example, Mac OS) to use the Windows upgrade license, as in scenario 3 below.

SA customers are permitted to run Windows Vista on a computer even if the qualifying operating system is still installed and running on that computer. However, Volume Licensing customers must still request media for the full operating system from Microsoft.

The second option is to purchase full OS Windows Vista FPP license for each Mac via the retail channel (remember licenses for full versions of the OS are not available in VL, just media as in option 1 above).

 

in bold the relevant bit. Seems software assurance is the main stipulation, but then who doesn't buy or get SA with their volume license purchases these days. Whether it's part of a wider select or one of the open licensing methods ?

 

Basically it looks like Mac osx 10.5 is one of the qualifying operating systems ?

 

plus this

 

Scenario 3: Replacing Apple Mac OS with (upgrading to) Windows OS: (This is not a common scenario due to technical difficulty, but it is allowed under the terms of Microsoft Volume Licensing.) If the customer has purchased Windows Vista Business Upgrade License for their Macs (without Software Assurance), the terms of the Upgrade License require that they first remove the qualifying OS (for example, Mac OS) before the Windows VL Upgrade license and software may be deployed (Mac OS is a qualifying OS in the Microsoft Volume Licensing program). Because the Windows upgrade software is not designed to install over non-Windows OS, Volume Licensing customers can request media (software) for the full Windows OS from Microsoft to perform this upgrade.

 

that's what we basically suspected isn't it ?

[chinesewhispers]

Thanks for all the replies, and I'm glad it stirred some discussion and wasn't just me, but I think we can agree that the licensing solution for a BootCamp install of Windows on a Mac retaining the original OS X install is VLK+SA.

 

VLK is fine if you destroy the OS X (who'd want to do that, even if you can).

 

So I need to find a supplier who can do me a good price for this setup.

 

I have more questions on licensing, but I think they won't be in the Mac section.

 

Cheers.

 

Let's hope we've got this right, this post is already top 5/6 in google for 'windows licence bootcamp', higher if you add 'volume' to the query.

Edited October 19, 2009 by chinesewhispers
Added Google info!

[john]

Ah so I was right, if your using it as a separate OS like I do on our Apple at work and my Macbook, unless you have SA, which unless you have Schools Agreement its an add-on, you do need a full retail copy, but if your replacing it your fine without.

 

Talk about confusing, and if you think this is bad wait until you try working out your standard Windows stuff!!!!

[torledo]

Ah so I was right, if your using it as a separate OS like I do on our Apple at work and my Macbook, unless you have SA, which unless you have Schools Agreement its an add-on, you do need a full retail copy, but if your replacing it your fine without.

 

Talk about confusing, and if you think this is bad wait until you try working out your standard Windows stuff!!!!

 

you crack me up.

[tmcd35]

So I need to find a supplier who can do me a good price for this setup.

 

Theres a difference between Open and Select agreements. Select Agreements tend to offer cheaper licenses. AFAIK if you're on an Academic Select Agreement then the prices are set regardless of volume - but I could easily be wrong here. Our LEA has a master agreement which all school in the County purchase through. Could be worth talking to your LEA about VLK purchases. Also I find Phoenix Software (Software Licensing, Software Asset Management (SAM) and IT Services:Phoenix Software Ltd) good for licenses.

 

I have more questions on licensing, but I think they won't be in the Mac section.

 

Ask away, we love licensing questions here

 

Let's hope we've got this right, this post is already top 5/6 in google for 'windows licence bootcamp', higher if you add 'volume' to the query.

 

Only top 5/6. This is Edugeek - we should be number 1

[chinesewhispers]

OK, let's spice things up a bit.

 

For hypothetical purposes, let's say I did manage to overwrite the existing Mac OS and install Windows as the only OS on a Mac. This is legitimate using just a correct vlk (it seems).

 

What if I then want to make the system dual boot with another OS such as Linux?

 

I assume my Windows licence is still valid, none of the hardware is changing.

[tmcd35]

As far as the Windows license, any version, Mac License, GPL, etc are concerned - you can dual boot, triple boot, quad boot, whatever to your hearts content. You just need a valid license for each instance of each OS installed. Same goes for Virtual Machines. You can run as meny as you like with what ever combination of OS's you see fit so long as each OS used is correctly licensed for the number of times it is used.

 

Makes sense? Thought not

[chinesewhispers]

So, if we have Macs with Tiger installed, upgrade them to Windows (using VLK, but not SA), then install Leopard or Snow Leopard alongside, is that OK?

 

I am trying to be awkward and facetious, I don't actually want or intend to do this, but is it legal (assuming the OS X that I put back on is a full licence of course).

[torledo]

So, if we have Macs with Tiger installed, upgrade them to Windows (using VLK, but not SA), then install Leopard or Snow Leopard alongside, is that OK?

 

 

doesn't it destroy the windows partition/install if you were to do that ?

 

Surely it's easier just to purchase the requisite number of VLKs w/ SA. With some volume license agreements SA is not an added cost extra i think.

 

If you purchase from your LA who have a select agreement as tmcd35 says, they purchase the orginial licenses with SA or the orginial license comes with SA, so even though you might not get the specific SA benefits arising from that [because it's the authorities agreement with microsoft/ms reseller],

nonetheless the licenses you purchase are covered as far as being able to install windows on a mac any which way you like. Plus, you save a bundle on not having to buy retail licenses.

[tmcd35]

So, if we have Macs with Tiger installed, upgrade them to Windows (using VLK, but not SA), then install Leopard or Snow Leopard alongside, is that OK?

 

I am trying to be awkward and facetious, I don't actually want or intend to do this, but is it legal (assuming the OS X that I put back on is a full licence of course).

 

So long as the versions of Leopard or Snow Leopard are full retail priced versions and not upgrade priced versions.

[HodgeHi]

The way i ready the scenarios Tiger isn't one of the OSes that are granted the upgrade rights, unless the scenario was just an example one.

 

I do have a question of my own though. Do Microsoft view other OSes such as OS X 10.5 as clients in their own right thus needing a CAL for each OS if it connects to their servers whether it be exchange or just server 2003 file servers?

[tmcd35]

The way i ready the scenarios Tiger isn't one of the OSes that are granted the upgrade rights, unless the scenario was just an example one.

 

I do have a question of my own though. Do Microsoft view other OSes such as OS X 10.5 as clients in their own right thus needing a CAL for each OS if it connects to their servers whether it be exchange or just server 2003 file servers?

 

Yes. AFAIK I CAL is needed for any device that can retrieve non-web based data of any kind from the server. Be it a printer, mac, pc, wireless access point, etc. Even a NAS box, if it uses AD for authentication, would need it's own CAL.

 

Website access and print queue access are exempt from the CAL requirement, I think...

[HodgeHi]

So does that mean 1 CAL per device or 1 CAl per device per OS?