raising top-up fees, what say thee ?

[torledo]

It's being widely reported today, they've noticed that topup fees have been so universally popular that they'd like to push their luck just a bit more by increasing the cap.....hopefully this might reignite the debate as to why we even have university fees in the first place.

 

you'd probably guess what my views are, they burden the current uni attending generation with tens of thousands in debts, but more importantly the repayment method penalises those who earn above a certain threshold [sound familiar ?? tax credits anyone !!??!]

 

it's a classic nulabour class snobbery, through schemes tax credits, university fees etc. they want to shift the tax/repayment burden onto those who choose to better themselves by progressing in their role/org. there's little incentive for a young person or family to take on a 25k a year job if you'll end up having a huge maginal tax burden in the form of deductions for union fees, pension scheme, basic rate income tax, NI contributions, council tax, rent to pay someone elses mortgage....and on top of that an interest accruing topup fee monthly repayment. why is this country getting progressively worse for successive generations ? why are things that were once taken for granted now either scarce or costly ? why is there such generational theft, and why are politicians who received a free education and affordable housing now denying those things to successive generations ?

 

is this the definiton of a ponzi ?

 

what i'd like to see is a retrospective university fee charge, write a letter to all alumni of all universities and inform them that we'll be taking back everyone's grants!!! [yes young 'uns not so long ago you'd have been paid to go to uni!!! fancy that] and charging for x number of years of the high class university tuition they received in the form of deductions from they're wage packet. If voluntarily philanthropy won't be enough to cover costs, this might work.

Edited March 17, 2009 by torledo

[apoth0r]

Everyone has a fair chance of going to university now!!!!!!!

oh wait..... if you can afford it.

 

Even better if you're on benefits! Always wondered what the beauty of being brought up in a council estate would have been like, ahhh the opportunity.....

[featured_spectre]

I was bought up in a council estate, and only myself and one other person in my area went to university. The whole place goes down hill with parents who couldnt care. As for most of the people on the estate, MANY of them do want to better themselves (well in my area), but its a case that they are unable to afford it.

[AyatollahPies]

 

is this the definition of ponzi ?

 

 

Not quite. :-)

 

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors rather than from any actual profit earned." - Wikipedia

 

I know where you're coming from though.

 

Not so sure what you mean by this "the repayment method penalises those who earn above a certain threshold"

[jamesb]

Not so sure what you mean by this "the repayment method penalises those who earn above a certain threshold"

 

You don't have to repay any of your student loan unless you earn more than a certain amount.

[apoth0r]

I was bought up in a council estate, and only myself and one other person in my area went to university. The whole place goes down hill with parents who couldnt care. As for most of the people on the estate, MANY of them do want to better themselves (well in my area), but its a case that they are unable to afford it.

 

We're how many years on from that?

Opportunities have increased for people living under council estates, your experiences aren't really relevant anymore

[AngryTechnician]

Not suite sure with your suggestion that it seems like a Ponzi scheme, and the suggestion that class snobbery is something particular to Labour is patently ridiculous - that's just politicians in general the way I see it, and will be no different when the Conservatives inevitably get in at the next election.

 

I graduated before "top-up fees" but during the years when there was a fee of up to just over £1000. I was lucky enough to have this waived as my family income was so low, but I had to take out the maximum student loan for 4 years and fully expect to still be paying it back in 10 years' time.

 

As I understand it, even though I would have benefited from the maintenance grant if the current system was in place, it would have been negated by the higher fees I would have to pay back afterwards (which are not waived for anyone unless I am mistaken), so I would be in no different a situation than I am now.

 

In short, as someone at the low-income end of the scale, I would be no better off now than under the system I went through on, so the suggestion it helps poorer families seem bogus to me. Those with higher family incomes are clearly worse off under top-up fees. I don't see how any student is better off under this arrangement.

[AngryTechnician]

Opportunities have increased for people living under council estates, your experiences aren't really relevant anymore

 

As someone who is active in the community in an area with a lot of social housing, I can't say I agree with that assessment. In a lot of areas social deprivation is still very high.

[Jiser]

Mounting anger that Scottish MPs, most of whom are Labour, are still able to vote on laws affecting England’s education and health policies when English

 

MPs now have no say on those issues north of the border.

 

Five years ago, the Government was able to force through controversial university tuition fees plans only after more than 40 Scottish Labour MPs backed it – even though the proposals did not affect their constituents.

 

 

Cameron: I would ban Scottish MPs from voting on English-only issues | Mail Online

 

BBC NEWS | Education | Universities push for higher fees

 

Scottish students get their fees wavered whilst the rest of the U.K. pays more and more. This is fudamentally wrong here!! Ill be writing to my local MP. If for instance I decide to a masters at some point or someone else in my family is struck by more fees we will suffer. Its all wrong. The rest of the U.K. should be blanketed with the same fees, fair for all, same for all!!

 

Ive worked in many different jobs since I was 13 and still struggled to pay fees of 1800 or so I think it was a year and maintain an ok standard of living whilst also living at home and studying + holding down a part time job. God knows what its like for those living away and not holding down a job or w/e.. Also people from perhaps lower income families! - I don't see why they couldn't afford it. I paid for everything myself.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Jiser

[jamesb]

In short, as someone at the low-income end of the scale, I would be no better off now than under the system I went through on, so the suggestion it helps poorer families seem bogus to me. Those with higher family incomes are clearly worse off under top-up fees. I don't see how any student is better off under this arrangement.

 

Levelling the playing field is easier when you just try to drag it all down to the same level, rather than build up the lower areas.

[torledo]

Not suite sure with your suggestion that it seems like a Ponzi scheme, and the suggestion that class snobbery is something particular to Labour is patently ridiculous - that's just politicians in general the way I see it, and will be no different when the Conservatives inevitably get in at the next election.

 

I graduated before "top-up fees" but during the years when there was a fee of up to just over £1000. I was lucky enough to have this waived as my family income was so low, but I had to take out the maximum student loan for 4 years and fully expect to still be paying it back in 10 years' time.

 

As I understand it, even though I would have benefited from the maintenance grant if the current system was in place, it would have been negated by the higher fees I would have to pay back afterwards (which are not waived for anyone unless I am mistaken), so I would be in no different a situation than I am now.

 

In short, as someone at the low-income end of the scale, I would be no better off now than under the system I went through on, so the suggestion it helps poorer families seem bogus to me. Those with higher family incomes are clearly worse off under top-up fees. I don't see how any student is better off under this arrangement.

 

 

you clearly have been subsidised as someone on 'low income' as your top-up fees were waived.

 

or do you live in cloud cuckoo land where someone, somewhere down the line, doesn't end up paying or making up the shortfall to give you a free education. Why should a higher education be means tested in such way ? why penalise those becuase they earn above a certain threshold. it's class snobbery but not in the way you imagine.

 

i didn't say class snobbery was peculiar to nulabour, at one point did i say the tories would do any better ? i said it was classic of the way nulabour as a politicla movement think and typical of the policies. It's class snobbery in the sense that they believe in a progressive tax system which discourages progress for those on low to middling incomes. They have this class warrior thing going on where they want to subsidise those on benefits or those on low incomes, but rather than get that subsidy from the high end of income earners most of it arrives by a high marginal tax burden on those only a level or two up from those on low incomes.

 

do the numbers if you don't believe me ?

[apoth0r]

As someone who is active in the community in an area with a lot of social housing, I can't say I agree with that assessment. In a lot of areas social deprivation is still very high.

 

Yes deprivation is still high, doesn't mean there aren't opportunities?

Where are my opportunities, oh yes thats right in the 4500 quid i owe from actually finding out that my family and i couldn't afford a university education. God forbid people who pay a mortgage and actually try to make a living for themselves rather then sponging off a system of excuse and laziness!

[RabbieBurns]

the Scottish system for uni has gone to pot too now. We get all our tuition fees paid, but the way they are dumbing down entry requirements for the "underprivileged" is sickening. They wouldn't let my sister to do law at Edinburgh (she had 5 A's), because both her older siblings, and her parents have got a degree. Instead, they let some ned in from the scheme with a C in home economics. Fair enough let some schemie in and give them funding if they cant afford it, but there's no need to reduce the entry requirements. If they're not good clever enough, they're not clever enough. Would be interested to see figures of how many of these folk that get let in actually graduate.

[torledo]

Levelling the playing field is easier when you just try to drag it all down to the same level, rather than build up the lower areas.

 

exactly. this is why there is a widening gap between rich and poor. In many cases, it's not worth getting out of bed for less than 35k a year for a regular job. Many many people understand this and know how to game the system and appreciate that it's a numbers game.

 

back to the issue of top-up fees, for that payment to be worthwhile requires a career that can pay that back fairly quickly. The last thing we should have is that debt burden hanging over people for years and years, and in many cases the inexorable rise in salary to pay down that debt just doesn't happen....fine, you can say that if the earned income isn't there, the payments aren't made....but the debt doesn't go away.

 

And the debt just keeps on accruing interest, this applies to both topup fee and student loan debt.

[AngryTechnician]

you clearly have been subsidised as someone on 'low income' as your top-up fees were waived.

I never said I wasn't helped, but that was under the previous system of fees where there was no maintenance grant. Under the new system they aren't waived for people on low incomes (unless I've missed something), you are just eligible for a maintenance grant instead. The net result is the same. My point is that the new system of fees seems to be no improvement over the previous systems, which I believe is where we agree.

 

i didn't say class snobbery was peculiar to nulabour

 

When you label something as a 'nulabour' trait that implies you have a problem with that particular party than with the trait itself. If that isn't correct then I apologise but that is the way it came across.

 

Yes deprivation is still high, doesn't mean there aren't opportunities?

Nor does it mean there are not still substantial barriers and that someone's experience of having to overcome them is no longer relevant.

[torledo]

I never said I wasn't helped, but that was under the previous system of fees where there was no maintenance grant. Under the new system they aren't waived for people on low incomes (unless I've missed something), you are just eligible for a maintenance grant instead. The net result is the same. My point is that the new system of fees seems to be no improvement over the previous systems, which I believe is where we agree.

 

is the maintenance grant a loan ? if not, what exactly has changed by moving to a maintenance grant ?

 

as for the nulabor/class snobbery thing. i have a problem both with nulabour and class snobbery, and yet it is a nulabour trait, so i hate the b****** even more. enjoy them while you've still got them and they can still afford to pay your tax credits, neither them nor the endless welfare funding will last forever.

 

before you ask, i'd be more inclined to vote libdem than tory....but that's not saying i will. my first inclination is not to vote for any of the gits.

[AngryTechnician]

is the maintenance grant a loan ? if not, what exactly has changed by moving to a maintenance grant ?

It's not directly a loan, but because you now have to pay the fees which are the same amount or higher, in effect it is a loan. So you're right, nothing has really changed in that respect except that if you aren't poor you don't get the grant and are worse off.

 

enjoy them while you've still got them and they can still afford to pay your tax credits, neither them nor the endless welfare funding will last forever.

Oh believe me, I don't like them either. I just despair because I don't think the next lot will be any better. I don't get tax credits; like I said, I was lucky enough to get my uni education and now don't have to rely on the welfare state at all, which is more than some poor buggers will get the more expensive that education becomes.

[apoth0r]

Well I am just pissed off with the whole system from my own experience, I was let down and now have to pay the price. I don't believe that being from a council estate works against you at all, there is every opportunity as everyone else to go to university these days and because my family pays a mortgage we're worse off then another person paying minimal fee's for a flat?

The benefits of living just above the line, oh wait, there are none.

Cheers!

[AyatollahPies]

A University education should be free for all, but you should have to prove that you have more than 2 brain cells to rub together. Having 5 A* grades proves nowt these days, which is unfair on those that are genuinely intelligent.

 

My dear old mum works in student finance, and you wouldn't believe the amount of people applying for funding, that cannot even read and fill in a form asking for their name and address etc correctly. Perhaps just being able to fill in this form should be the entry requirement.

 

The whole concept of sending 50% of the population to University is ridiculous.

[torledo]

A University education should be free for all, but you should have to prove that you have more than 2 brain cells to rub together. Having 5 A* grades proves nowt these days, which is unfair on those that are genuinely intelligent.

 

My dear old mum works in student finance, and you wouldn't believe the amount of people applying for funding, that cannot even read and fill in a form asking for their name and address etc correctly. Perhaps just being able to fill in this form should be the entry requirement.

 

The whole concept of sending 50% of the population to University is ridiculous.

 

i wouldn't mind so much topup fees, and allowing uni's to set tuition fees, but apply it retrospectively to everyone who attented university and now have a means to pay......why apply it only to those who've started uni after 200x ?? they have no control over when they were born.

 

All those high court judges, mp's, investment bankers, who've made a mint personally and benefited from free higher education in many cases, should be forced to make a contribution to the universities they attended....and we'll make it means tested while we're at it. how do you like them apples ?

 

that way it appears less like the generational theft the current system is ....

[treetops]

This following the last attempt to take the money from folks pensions! The only conclusion I can come to is that the powers that be simply do not care about us.

[grumpy_git]

I'm a student at the moment so you can imagine my views on this.

 

(Although I study in Scotland, I'm from England - so I have to pay a fee, but a lower one than if I went to uni in England).

 

However, it's astounding how much waste and stupidity goes on - like in other places. At the moment, our university is batting on about how there's a funding crisis - they have cut lecture times (so they need less lecturers), reduced the number of lab computers, cut back on lab helpers, cut back on staffing, buildings maintenance etc. At the moment they're whining at people for not turning lights out at night!

 

At the same time, they're throwing money down the drain on "rebranding" and "restructuring" departments, consultants for changing term times, a small fortune on a flashy new "postgrad welcome centre". Oh, and stuck speed bumps all over campus, which my back hates. Not to mention splashing out on corporate events and buffets for management (which by look of them they take full advantage of).

 

It reminds me strongly of so many organisations - like the school where I work outwith term times. "There's no money" they cry at any opportunity - before proceeding to offer management pay rises, throw money at flashy reception desk, and pay "educational consultants" a fortune to do "mock OFSTED" inspections... I recall the look on the Chief Beancounter's face when I presented a receipt for about £3 in petty cash for power splitters - at the same time that (tens of?) thousands were being spent on LCD display screens to scroll propaganda!

 

head.Desk.Bang();

 

Edited March 17, 2009 by grumpy_git

[RabbieBurns]

what uni are you at up here out of interest?

[featured_spectre]

Well I am just pissed off with the whole system from my own experience, I was let down and now have to pay the price. I don't believe that being from a council estate works against you at all, there is every opportunity as everyone else to go to university these days and because my family pays a mortgage we're worse off then another person paying minimal fee's for a flat?

The benefits of living just above the line, oh wait, there are none.

Cheers!

 

i never said that there weren't opportunites, I saw one and grabbed it. But in alot of council estates in the country (not just luton) there is massive amounts of social deprivation which leads people to believe that they arent good enough to make a decent go at university, even if they did get financial help, which in turn gets them to believe that they should not go out and earn the money they would like. For example, a neighbour of mine has 9 daughters and 2 sons, he gets over £35'000 on state funding, yet for him to go out and get that in a job is near impossible because he speaks very little english.

 

It is a double standard in this country that those that DO NOT work get all the benefits that they could ever want and then some, but those that do go out, get an education and work hard for there money, get shafted by high taxes, no help in terms of tax credits when having children etc so where is the incentive?

[Jiser]

Even in the former polys you do have to have some brain cells be time you get to final year. Your results breakdown will show how capable you are.

 

Not any old idiot IMO can get go get a decent BSc/BA grade.

 

Anyway stilll scottish students should be paying!! Also its about time an Ofsted type thing (if one doesn't exist allready) is put into Uni's. The standard of alot of courses/lecturers is not up to scratch in hell of alot of places.

 

Worrying about what everyone is doing and how much taxes is not good. At least those who are working can die happy that they wern't scroungers!!

 

Back to topic - fees shouldn't be raised for those living in the U.K.Financial management should be bettered!

Edited March 18, 2009 by Jiser