[sims] Virtualise SIMS

[Ric_]

@vikpaw: Is there any reason that you want to P2V the server other than laziness? I prefer to start from scratch if possible so that the years of cr@p aren't carried across.

 

A SIMS server is relatively easy to set up - Windows, SQL, copy document server files, do the DBAttach business and jobs a good un.

[vikpaw]

i'm waiting on hardware. at the moment the test was done on my desktop PC.

 

clean server (hard + soft) is the way to go, but not til summer probably.

 

if i can do a soft copy for now i can test dec upgrade out, though i may as well wait for march, but even then, i cannot have downtime on sims as it puts 10 ppl out of work, no registers, no intake of kids (we have high flux!), no cover! . . .

 

the virtual wont be in production env' for now.

 

p.s. pm'ed you something.

[EduTech]

I agree SIMS is very easy to setup from scratch, we did it here when we virtulised sim's done it in a day and we had to re-build it from backups! (yes our simsserver died when the aircon failed!)

 

I'm not saying everyone might find it really easy, but when you have a forum of people to help it's fairly straight forward.

 

I try and avod P2V if i can help it

 

PM me if you have any questions

 

James.

[coolusername]

I assume most people are keeping their SQL data on local hard drives on the virtualisation hosts.

 

Does anyone have their data on an iSCSI SAN? How does it affect performance with SQL Server dragging data across the iSCSI network for every query?

[matt40k]

I assume most people are keeping their SQL data on local hard drives on the virtualisation hosts.

 

Does anyone have their data on an iSCSI SAN? How does it affect performance with SQL Server dragging data across the iSCSI network for every query?

 

Depends on how much RAM you have, how big the database is, if your using standard or express ed. of MSSQL.

[EduTech]

I assume most people are keeping their SQL data on local hard drives on the virtualisation hosts.

 

Does anyone have their data on an iSCSI SAN? How does it affect performance with SQL Server dragging data across the iSCSI network for every query?

 

correct, we have 2 SQL Servers and both are physicall likewise with our storage it is on a Storage Server which is physical apart from that everything is Virtualised.

 

James.

[Theblacksheep]

I assume most people are keeping their SQL data on local hard drives on the virtualisation hosts.

 

Does anyone have their data on an iSCSI SAN? How does it affect performance with SQL Server dragging data across the iSCSI network for every query?

 

Our SIMS (2vCPUs (@2.66) and 4gb ram): 170 staff, 1700 students has no problems. Not even close to exchange 2003 for IO and that doesn't break a sweat over iscsi either.

 

San (iscsi) is on dedicated network seperated from 'production' network.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Theblacksheep

[Abaddon]

iSCSI here as well, with SIMS on VMWare host. Fully vMotioned etc etc.. no performance issues. Staff use it on laptops wirelessly through a Citrix server farm mostly, although some are using the locally installed client.

[coolusername]

Thanks for the reply Matt, so does that mean you have some experience of SIMS .net with data on an iSCSI SAN?

[ful56_uk]

Our sims server runs on esx on a iscsi sas San. Like everyone else no problems run smooth as. Plus the added bonus of snap shots pre any patches that might fail

[matt40k]

Thanks for the reply Matt, so does that mean you have some experience of SIMS .net with data on an iSCSI SAN?

 

Very limited I'm afraid. Basically found you need to have the database in memory with enough free RAM for everything else. Most of SIMS stuff is read IO so it shouldn't matter too much. No idea about the details of how they did it. Just they have Dell blades\storage, Cisco switches using VMware. There's a enough people on here to give advise about a good SAN setup.

[russdev]

Funny we just placed an order for new Sims.net server which Hyper-V. So within the next few months we should have Sims.net running on virtual server.

[tmcd35]

We're about to make a decision on what our new MIS is going to be. Part of the tender document we asked them to submit was 'Can we run your MIS run as a VM on the attached host spec?'.

 

Both suppliers said yes.

[pete]

We have SIMS running under Xen via nfs here. I have no complaints. Like most people we have dedicated storage switches.

[coolusername]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

We have an iSCSI SAN on dedicated switches (two storage controllers, each with two ports, one on each of two separate gigabit switches) and ESXi on two fairly capable hosts (24GB, 2 x quad 2.66GHz, 8 NICs) so should be able to give the VM decent bandwidth and plenty of RAM. All is running very well for our other servers and I will now have a trial run at virtualising SIMS .net (with full SQL/not express) with the data on the SAN.

 

Will report back when I have either been crowned SIMS .net saviour or sacked for dragging us back into the dark ages.

[Gongalong]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but just to add... we're running 20 virtualised servers (Hyper-V), none particularly demanding other than our file server and SIMS, on two HP ProLiant DL385 G7s (2 * 8 core Opterons, with 72GB RAM) and an iSCSI HP MSA2312i SAN.

 

SIMS itself is running on Win Server 2008 (32 bit), with four virtual processors, and 8GB of RAM. It's definitely under load, but not maxing out in terms of CPU and RAM at least.

 

All the staff that used SIMS lots prior to the virtualisation say the performance has decreased from what was previously a 5-year old (tin) Dell server.

 

Anyone else experienced a drop in performance with going to Hyper-V and managed to improve it?

[The_Windy_Miller]

I'm hoping that there's a typo here and that SIMS is running on Server 2008 (64 bit?

[Gongalong]

No, 2008 (R1) 32 bit. I quote our CC's IT department:

 

Some schools have been in touch to ask why we

only supports Windows Server 2008 Enterprise SP2 (32-bit)

and not the later Windows Server 2008 R2 (64-bit).

We do this to provide optimum support for schools. Our

policy is to set up the SIMS Host as a dedicated server and a

SIMS workstation.

Setting up the server this way has several advantages:

• More effective and efficient support which can isolate and

establish whether a problem is caused by a network, a

client or a software issue.

• Some legacy SIMS modules are 16-bit and will not run

on Windows Server 2008 R2 (64-bit) - which negates the

advantages of the workstation set up.

• SIMS itself is 32-bit, so there are no performance

enhancements gained by installing a 64-bit operating

system.

• During upgrades it is sometimes required to access the

SIMS client application - this saves the need to move to

another machine.

• During support and upgrades, it is sometimes necessary

to reboot a server. If the server is used for other purposes

and running other software, this affects all users

(sometimes in the classroom) in addition to SIMS users.

• If the server is not dedicated to SIMS, performance may

be affected and conflicts can occur - making it more

difficult and time consuming to isolate issues.

Of course schools are free to make their own decision

whether to follow our recommendations or install a 64-bit

version of Windows Server 2008 onto the SIMS Host. However

please be aware that, while you will still receive support from

us, it may take longer to resolve some issues.

[vikpaw]

Looks like your hands are tied.

I don't like the last 3 points. Not really relevant.

I have R2 and have installed the client too. no problem.

Just to wind them up, ask them if they'l support you on Windows 8 with Server 2012 as it's now supported by Capita

[Gongalong]

I LOL'd It's probably a way of trying to push their hosted solution.

[jinnantonnixx]

Our policy is to set up the SIMS Host as a dedicated server and a

SIMS workstation.

Setting up the server this way has several advantages:

• More effective and efficient support which can isolate and

establish whether a problem is caused by a network, a

client or a software issue.

--- This is a non-sequitur. This conclusion doesn't follow from logical reasoning.

 

• Some legacy SIMS modules are 16-bit and will not run

on Windows Server 2008 R2 (64-bit) - which negates the

advantages of the workstation set up.

--- You don't run client apps on a server. You're introducing extra complexity.

 

 

• SIMS itself is 32-bit, so there are no performance

enhancements gained by installing a 64-bit operating

system.

--- There are plenty of advantages to running 64 bit server and 64 bit SQL server, and plenty of disadvantages to running 32 bit server software. The SIMS client is indeed 32 bit, but the architecture of the underlying servers is opaque. A high performance back-end is better than a low performance back-end.

 

• During upgrades it is sometimes required to access the

SIMS client application - this saves the need to move to

another machine.

--- This is an argument? Seriously?

 

• During support and upgrades, it is sometimes necessary

to reboot a server. If the server is used for other purposes

and running other software, this affects all users

(sometimes in the classroom) in addition to SIMS users.

--- An earlier argument stated that running SIMS client on a server is a positive thing. Yet now running other software on a server is a negative thing?

 

 

• If the server is not dedicated to SIMS, performance may

be affected and conflicts can occur - making it more

difficult and time consuming to isolate issues.

--- Quite so. Which is why you don't install client software on a server. Logging in to the server and running the SIMS client will degrade the server performance.

Edited February 28, 2013 by jinnantonnixx

[Gongalong]

This particular text is a little softer than what we were told before, which was basically that anything other than the recommended server OS was an unsupported environment, so we felt we had no choice, sadly. It's one of only two non-2008 R2 servers, the other of which is 2003 for some ancient MFL software.

[jinnantonnixx]

I find that odd. What's the difference in support between 2008R2 and other servers? If it involved the disassembly of core dumps I could understand....

 

Of course there is licencing - if there's no cash to shell out on servers then that's another matter.

Edited February 28, 2013 by jinnantonnixx

[Gongalong]

Well the difference in support being as per the previous blurb.

 

Licensing's not an issue as we have Datacentre (or whatever it is that allows us to install any Server OS on a Hyper-V system).

[Gongalong]

Which begs the question, would there be that much difference in performance between 32 and 64 bit? We would have been running 32 bit on our previous physical SIMS server.

 

I'm not well versed in server performance analysis e.g. where to check for network and disk performance bottlenecks, and I know even less about SQL server performance analysis. And perhaps it's just the case that our physical Hyper-V servers and/or SAN don't have enough oomph.