free4440273 Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 @ajbrittanyspears whatever. if you want to waste money on ranger, then go ahead - perhaps a course in stupidity is more up your street. @free448345878789327932: If you think that W2K3 server & AD can do everything that Ranger can do then I guess you never figured out how to use Ranger. I suggest you try reading the Ranger manual or look at the website. Maybe you could go on a course.
kingswood Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 I'm not familiar with Ranger, so can't comment on it specifically; but I can say that I am more than familiar with what I think would be a close competitor- CSE Application Toolkit. It's a managed solution, generally used by schools that don't have a strong IT department (counts me in then- lol). But it's totally crap. I am counting the days to moving to Windows 2003 and Group Policy. I know this brings administrative problems of its own, but I think it would be worth your while staying as you are and looking around for tools you can use to do what you want. Don't get bound up in these "amazing" tools... Paul
free4440273 Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 if you are competent enough to use group policy and AD, you don't need ranger - a complete waste of money - it's for morons like ajbrittanysspears....
kingswood Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 Now this IS funny: http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products/Product.asp?cref=PD149011&catref=1554.2.2.73 Where do they get these figures from???? Paul :-P
E1uSiV3 Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 if you are competent enough to use group policy and AD, you don't need ranger - a complete waste of money - it's for morons like ajbrittanysspears.... @Free: I dont you think your comments are needed and it would be dissapointing to see this thread turn into a flame war over a difference in opinion on a piece of software, we are all professionals here and we all have a job to do. If some people do it a different way to another then so be it, there is no reason to bash it. My personal experiences of ranger are similar to yours, i hated it and preferred a vanilla 2k3 system. I know of other schools that run Ranger sucessfully and helps them manage the unmanagable - its all based on wether or not you have the time to do it the M$ way or for ease of life you do it the Ranger (or any other management system) way.
Ric_ Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 Now this IS funny: http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products/Product.asp?cref=PD149011&catref=1554.2.2.73 Where do they get these figures from???? Paul :-P Are those prices annual costs?!? A school with 2 servers would have to pay over £24K a year for RM to manage their network. Add £7.5K for each additional server... I wish I was paid that much!!!
jonny_valentine Posted November 27, 2005 Posted November 27, 2005 Ranger is a good suite of applications, so good they've been bought by RM! But from my experience they are overpriced, William Sharp school in Nottingham used to pay >20k per year for CSE, i think similar to Ranger (puts a front end on Windows i think). They found CSE useful, it helped but in the end they went vanilla also. You just cant beat a clean windows interface Bottom line, Ranger is good for a school without techies, but very pricey!
free4440273 Posted November 28, 2005 Posted November 28, 2005 E1uSiV3 then other people should not trash my comments - ranger is for morons, and complete incompetents...
kingswood Posted November 28, 2005 Posted November 28, 2005 @Jonny: How can they be paying over 20k a year for CSE? Do you know why the cost is so high for them?? I think you are probably right though- CSE and Ranger are two important solutions that plug essential gaps in support needs for schools without the relevant staff. Paul
Ric_ Posted November 28, 2005 Posted November 28, 2005 Surely, if a school is willing to pay £20K/year for a teacher-friendly interface or outside support contract, they would rather have an in-house technician (esp. considering the pitiful pay in some schools).
free4440273 Posted November 28, 2005 Posted November 28, 2005 this is my point exactly in my earlier post (i just could not be bothered to state the bloody obvious) - ranger is a load of crap. a competent engineer who is adept at using AD and GPO's would see absolutely no reason for ranger - you can do everything ranger can with AD and GPOs.
ajbritton Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 @free4440273: You CANNOT do everything that Ranger can do with AD and GPOs. Tell me how you do the following (with just AD and GPO mind, no scripts/add-ons)... (NB - taken from Ranger web site) - Prevent specific dialog boxes from appearing - Prevent applications by time of day - Log all user activity and attempted security violations to server's management system - Start ad-hoc applications on clients - Produce graphs of network/application usage - Enforce license control of applications across the network - Get an instant visual indication of applications in use - Simplified account management (inc. bulk creation) - Application packaging (before/after snapshot method) - List attempted security violations Personally, I don't use Ranger because most of my work is in primary schools who could not afford it. BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FOR MORONS AND OF NO VALUE. I do not see how reading this sort of comment helps out a user who is trying to find management solutions for their network. If all you are going to do is post hyperbole and think jump on the back of other peoples comments to say 'oh yes, that's what I meant', then please don't bother. My apologies to other users if this seems like a personal crusade. As I said, I don't use Ranger but I can see that it might be of use to some. (In fact, an ex-colleage of mine who went to become network manager of a large secondary school regarded it as invaluable. He was certainly no moron but Ranger made his life easier.) Maybe we could start a WiKi in which Ranger users could accurately list the useful features and we could then assess how easily these might be replaced with scripts/open source/3rd party solutions.
kingswood Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 I think you listed quite a few of the useful features right there. We use (at the moment) a CSE solution to do those things called the Application Toolkit, and they *are* useful. So useful in fact, that because we are planning on leaving them we are having to shop around to get a lot of the features we *need* as part of our in-house solution. Often this can be as costly. But let's put it into more perspective- even though we use CSE as a managed solution, we can still mess with GPOs and login scripts and all those other things you can do without having a shell experience on top of a normal Windows networked experience. What I would say in defence of these types of things is that if IT support staff left the school at any point, would the school cope without them? If not, then a managed solution is an added layer of security should things go pear-shaped. At the least it would help having that layer of support there. I won't tell you my gripes about CSE, but let's just say on the other side of the coin things look murky :-) Paul
ajbritton Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 What I would say in defence of these types of things is that if IT support staff left the school at any point, would the school cope without them? If not, then a managed solution is an added layer of security should things go pear-shaped. At the least it would help having that layer of support there. A good point. I suppose one answer would be to fully implement FITS. This would give a completely managed/documented system with change control processes and all the other guff that does with it. It's a great idea but I'm not sure how easily can be implemented in smaller schools.
Ric_ Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 @ajbritton: regarding your FITS idea - you could hire in help for a couple of weeks to implement the documentation and FITS systems setup. This would undoubtably be cheaper than purchasing Ranger. I have used Ranger in the past and it was flaky to say the least - although it may be better now. I also found the GUI a little childish (school-project-style). True, it is a nice package with everything you may need but you can buy better versions of everything elsewhere - all be it in seperate products.
ajbritton Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 True, it is a nice package with everything you may need but you can buy better versions of everything elsewhere - all be it in seperate products. I'm sure that's true. I propose, then, that we start a WiKi or something similar that lists the functions of the various management systems and possible open source/3rd party alternatives. A bit like the 'essential software' list, but broken down into the various areas (security, user management, reporting etc.). Users of the systems can post complaints or advice or alternatives. Anyone else think this is worth doing?
MkII Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 Yes, I second that AJB. This is another bone of contention that keeps re-appearing. Wiki'fying it would let all points of view be aired once only, and save us all tripping up all the time on these contentious subjects.
Ric_ Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 The Wiki page is set up at http://www.russdev.com/edugeek/doku.php?id=replacing_ranger_rm_connect_etc._with_seperate_gubbins It needs the categories adding but I am quite lazy!
Netman Posted November 29, 2005 Author Posted November 29, 2005 As the OP, I'd like to thank users (particularly AJBritton) for the constructive points raised, shame about the less constructive ones but hey. I personally decided not to go any further with looking at Ranger some time ago but I'm certain it has it's place in some Schools. I have a colleague in a hard pressed secondary who has deployed it and really benefits from it and again, he is certainly no moron. Single-handedly supporting 1600 users sometimes means you have to take the path of least resistance which Ranger has been for him.
_Rob_ Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 I am a new user to this forum, and am a little disappointed to see some of the posts on this thread, however, I would like to balance the argument slightly, I currently support 77 schools and have implemented ranger on over 30 of them, we have developed an excellent relationship with Sentinel and I am a fan of their product. That said it isn't for everyone and there are pros and cons with any implementation. Don't rule it out though, it's an excellent product with some good developments. If you would like to know more about our experiences in North Tyneside LEA then send me a message or give me a call and I would be happy to discuss it in further detail. Rob.
jonny_valentine Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 @Jonny: How can they be paying over 20k a year for CSE? Do you know why the cost is so high for them?? Paul Surely, if a school is willing to pay £20K/year for a teacher-friendly interface or outside support contract, they would rather have an in-house technician (esp. considering the pitiful pay in some schools). Ric_ They pay that much for some unknown silly reason, i dont know. Anyway, they dont pay that now, as I redone the whole network and they use something else. Ric_: They had 2 techies as well as CSE.. the techies left because they wanted a normal windows network and it wasnt a user friendly interface. As an extention to the question, a few years ago, me and a friend decided to create our own product to assist techies and teachers who couldnt afford Ranger and CSE.. im not advertising it, but it does all the same stuff (the useful bits) and costs less than the yearly maintenance of the bigger names. If you want to give it a go NetMan, theres a 30-day trial which you can install and uninstall if you dont like it. PM me for info.
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