EU funds sought to prop up BSF plan

[broc]

According to the latest issue of TES:

 

EU funds sought to prop up BSF plan | News | TES

[bossman]

Plans of Mice and Men and Governments, I say lets sell to the Arabs and have done with it, they seem to be buying everything else that they can get their hands on why not our educational system. :mad:

[webman]

Perhaps if they didn't waste so much money on expensive consultants and managers and outsourcing the IT, then maybe it wouldn't cost so much...

[spc-rocket]

Perhaps if they didn't waste so much money on expensive consultants and managers and outsourcing the IT, then maybe it wouldn't cost so much...

 

Completely agree with you.

 

Ash.

[broc]

It's quite funny in a black sort of way though...

 

The builders want to build schools for the Govt (& make a healthy profit for themselves and their bankers)

 

So the banks, having been rescued from the brink by our Govt using our taxpayers money turn round & say 'no thanks' to the idea that they should now lend our 'taxpayers' money to the builders for schools for our taxpayers children, these to be paid for by taxpayers....................

[torledo]

It's quite funny in a black sort of way though...

 

The builders want to build schools for the Govt (& make a healthy profit for themselves and their bankers)

 

So the banks, having been rescued from the brink by our Govt using our taxpayers money turn round & say 'no thanks' to the idea that they should now lend our 'taxpayers' money to the builders for schools for our taxpayers children, these to be paid for by taxpayers....................

 

That taxpayer injection of funding is being used to balance the books of the banks who've suffered almighty losses due to their greed and stupidity.... With depreciating asset prices, wholesale credit markets in an absolute mess, the banks can't exactly start lending for these grand off-balance sheet govt.schemes. They can't even return to previous lending levels becuase the world economy is so dire.

 

What return are the bankers going to get in the short term on a project that costs 45bn and runs for 25 years ? Becuase of the wholesale credit markets i don't believe the banks can possibly lend the kind of money required.

 

The govt. want to make a great deal out of getting the banks to lend at 2007 levels, all becuase they've been backstopped by the bailout. That is ludicrous thinking on the govts. part thinking it's back to business as usual.

I'm guessing the banks don't have the deposits or the assets to lend, irrespective of the bailout.

 

The govt. would have been better off reducing the debt directly for every individual and business rather than plugging the holes for the bankers and then relying on them to carry on lending at absurd levels. When the bankers can't.

 

Atleast the ECB will be happy to help PfS out at a low interest rate no doubt to encourage this absurd fiscal stimulus madness going on around the world.

[bossman]

Ever increasing circles hmmmm!! or should it be ever decreasing circles.

Broc: your witticisms are always good especially for a Monday. We have just been informed that the report on the consultation on the BSF in our area, proposals will go to Cabinet on 18th December.

It is an open meeting therefore members of the public can attend.

But the documentation which should be available to all is only being released on to the CC website 5 days before the meeting.

:sick:

[broc]

What return are the bankers going to get in the short term on a project that costs 45bn and runs for 25 years ? Becuase of the wholesale credit markets i don't believe the banks can possibly lend the kind of money required.

 

I don't think PfS were looking for £45bn, just enough to fund 5 LAs... maybe a billion or two at the most

Edited December 8, 2008 by broc

[bossman]

@Torledo:

It beggars belief that with my taxes the Government is bailing out these greedy bankers (play on words, not bad for a Monday) and then trying to borrow my money back for the BSF projects which will put me out of work probably, so in effect i am signing my own death knell job wise, by working hard and paying my taxes.

 

BTW: I wonder if the Government will bail me out when I am unemployed and have no money just like the Banks and the large building consortium's etc.. :mad:

[torledo]

I don't think PfS were looking for £45bn, just enough to fund 5 LAs... may a billion or two at the most

 

Fair point. But there is going to be, and already has been a great deal of consolidation in the banking sector. And they are being more prudent and there is less of a choice in terms of lending for these projects. I don't know enough about the structure of PfS to say whether the banks are turning away from lending to these LA's becuase of who's liable for the debt.

 

If i was a bank, and i had to lend for a construction project, i'd want that project to be backstopped by the govt.. Why ? Because the construction industry is in a bit of a bind, and with further job losses in 2009 and 2010, who knows who's going to be able to repay what, how and when ? Who knows who's still going to be in business or what the financial shape of the LA's is.

 

If i'm a bank i want to know that if everything goes pear shaped no-ones going to default on that credit i've lent. If they do default or cannot repay i've got a hole in my balance sheet. IT's all about risk at the end of the day, we should be glad lenders are being more cautios - that's if they really ARE being more cautios.......it's more to do with the banking landscape being fundamentally different rather than banks being all boring and belt and braces like they were in the bowler hatted days of old.

[SpuffMonkey]

@Torledo:

It beggars belief that with my taxes the Government is bailing out these greedy bankers (play on words, not bad for a Monday) and then trying to borrow my money back for the BSF projects which will put me out of work probably, so in effect i am signing my own death knell job wise, by working hard and paying my taxes.

 

BTW: I wonder if the Government will bail me out when I am unemployed and have no money just like the Banks and the large building consortium's etc.. :mad:

 

Ah - but you're not essential to the economy like the banks...that brought us to the edge of bankrupcy

[torledo]

@Torledo:

It beggars belief that with my taxes the Government is bailing out these greedy bankers (play on words, not bad for a Monday) and then trying to borrow my money back for the BSF projects which will put me out of work probably, so in effect i am signing my own death knell job wise, by working hard and paying my taxes.

 

BTW: I wonder if the Government will bail me out when I am unemployed and have no money just like the Banks and the large building consortium's etc.. :mad:

 

Certainly. You are working and paying taxes so that you and others have no future. Think about it, for the first time in ages asset prices are DROPPING, meaning affordability is within reach for you renters or you lot living at home with mum and dad. But what do the govt. want ? They want to resume crazy lending so as to reinflate the bubble by spending and borrowing MORe . And twas the bubble, and the debt that caused this mess.

 

But don't worry the govt. will bail you out up to a point, if you get laid off.

They'll pay your housing costs for a period of time, and i'm expecting any minute now for credit card interest repayments allowance for the unemployed. [heavy sarcasm]

 

But for as long as your in work, and if your not a homeowner then we don't have much in the way of a govt. looking out for the interests of people such as yourself. And if your a saver and your prudent, then the govt. aren't interested either.

[torledo]

Ah - but you're not essential to the economy like the banks...that brought us to the edge of bankrupcy

 

We also played out part by borrowing from the banks, and not looking at our own affordability. IF it weren't for the collapse in the global mortgage securitization market and the analysis of these toxic assets by the hedge funds we would stil, as a nation, be borrowing MORE and MORE in the mistaken belief that this was a new paradigm......

 

that there was no more boom and bust, and that as an individual one could afford 7 city centre flats, a 3-bed terrace and a mock tudor mansion all on jobseekers Allowance. Who told us prices could only ever go up, it wasn't just the banks. Why not blame the media, the govt, all of those encouraging us ?

 

Think about what caused the collapse.....was it our own realisation that we were borrowing too much ? The answer to that is a resounding NO.

[broc]

if your a saver and your prudent, then the govt. aren't interested either.

 

You are absolutely spot on there; I seriously wonder if the interest rates are being manipulated to persuade people with savings to 'blow' them rather than see them wither away. None of the recent Govt actions has done anything for pensioners & others with modest savings......

 

At one time you could make a decision (eg new car purchase) to use some savings towards the cost based upon the gap between savings rates and borrowing rates. The last car loan I had (a couple of years ago) the gap was only a few percent, now the gap is HUGE..... Only people desperate to borrow money will end up paying the rates now demanded by the banks and finance houses.

[SpuffMonkey]

We also played out part by borrowing from the banks, and not looking at our own affordability. IF it weren't for the collapse in the global mortgage securitization market and the analysis of these toxic assets by the hedge funds we would stil, as a nation, be borrowing MORE and MORE in the mistaken belief that this was a new paradigm......

 

that there was no more boom and bust, and that as an individual one could afford 7 city centre flats, a 3-bed terrace and a mock tudor mansion all on jobseekers Allowance. Who told us prices could only ever go up, it wasn't just the banks. Why not blame the media, the govt, all of those encouraging us ?

 

Think about what caused the collapse.....was it our own realisation that we were borrowing too much ? The answer to that is a resounding NO.

 

Well I was being flip with my reply - though its partly true.

 

Personally I have no debt now - so am more than a little irritated that my taxes are going to subsidise people who didn't manage their finances as prudently as me

 

It seemed pretty obvious that you can't sustain an economy based on more and more lending for ever. In fact - to me it seems obvious that you can't sustain an economy where you don't make much that you can export and earn income on anymore - but I'm just an old style engineer, what do I know...

[bossman]

@Spuffmonkey:

How's about an interest free loan then hehe!

Only joking, your absolutely right, but as the Tory government through the eighties with the glorious but mildly insane Maggie Thatcher sought to take down the lending barriers which kept people the same (ad nowt never will) it spiralled out of control.

 

And as the song goes:

"Look out Maggie i think i got something to say to you" is so apt.

[GrumbleDook]

HSBC are apparently looking to make substantial loans to small businesses next year, but small businesses aren't likely to make any gains in BSF so it is not as if people can create their own BSF IT company and outsource to themselves (hey, if BOfH can do it the why can't schools!)

[bossman]

@GrumbleDook:

There you go then Tony, another project for you hehe!

"How to manage IT better than a BSF managed service"

 

He!He! ;)

[CyberNerd]

but small businesses aren't likely to make any gains in BSF

 

This is a major part of the problem. The government are borrowing billions to bail out their BSF programme in an effort to spend their way out of recession. yet a substantial portion of that money (the ICT bit) is just going to into the pockets of multinationals or leaving the country entirely because small local firms are not allowed to provide the service.

[broc]

I feel sorry for the host of small to medium sized companies that serve 'us' so well at the moment in school; most of these will not get a look in with BSF.

 

I don't think many people believe the PfS arguments about BSF economies of scale either, we already have 'County' procurement contracts that are supposed to get us good deals, in practice most can be undercut by direct negotiation with suppliers.

[torledo]

I feel sorry for the host of small to medium sized companies that serve 'us' so well at the moment in school; most of these will not get a look in with BSF.

 

I don't think many people believe the PfS arguments about BSF economies of scale either, we already have 'County' procurement contracts that are supposed to get us good deals, in practice most can be undercut by direct negotiation with suppliers.

 

 

 

http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/PP8917.pdf

 

Here is a very excellent article on the 'Public Services Industry' highlighting the 'machine' smb's are going up against when it comes to winning a slice of the public sector investment [taxpayers money] pie.

 

banks, infrastructure funds, private equity houses, consultancy firms, multinational corporations, “third sector” enterprises, and a new breed of “multi-service” firms focused on winning government contracts

 

The report also uses the words 'thinktank' and 'roundtable'...which sums up the last 10 years. Not to mention the lobbying orgs and consultancies and other groups...some of the names will be very familiar.

But not a nice, cosy familiarity like the post office or M&S.

 

IT, facilities management and back office functions are far along the privatisation journey. The justification for transferring these functions is that they require significant investments that the public finances cannot afford.

 

The interesting thing about that last statement is that all the big companies are doing is doing exactly what a smaller, more focused group of people would do........borrow the money and seek financing to deliver the service.

 

To me economies of scale just mean the economies of making bigger profits.

But what does that do to the risk element when a handful of companies get such a big slice of the pie.

 

But wait!!! they can't give money and award projects to the little guy......they'll just pi$$ it away on trying to pay down debts, we need to keep the little people down at the bottom so that they continue to pay taxes and take on more debt [thus paying more interest to the banks] so that we can award the tax revenues to the consultants and the clever folk. The real wealth creators in the country.

[SpuffMonkey]

Only joking, your absolutely right, but as the Tory government through the eighties with the glorious but mildly insane Maggie Thatcher sought to take down the lending barriers which kept people the same (ad nowt never will) it spiralled out of control.

 

 

Yeah - the lending barriers were there for a reason - to stop a huge credit boom and bust that caused the Great Depression - you could only borrow 3x your salary tops - house prices stayed sensible because no one could afford to pay stupid prices. We've only had the illusion of being wealthy due to unsustainable property price increases. What do they say about those who cannot remember the past being condemned to repeat it?

[Styloid]

Can anybody explain why the EIB is underwriting the investment of the big banks so commercial banks can take control of state assests which will be rented back to the state for the next 25 years ?

 

H0w come when we were a poor country we could build schools within the local ecconomy ? Where loads of little schemes running locally delivered results through the local building ecomomy, and kept the money in the local economy.

 

Now we are successful we decide to joint all the needs together under one umbrella which is so massive that only European money and complex funding with bankers and lawyers (and god knows how many civil servent) can get involved. (what do they cost and contribute I wonder)

With the collapse of the £ - even our strongest national companies like RM will be easy pray to international take over-as they hold such irrevocable access to public cash for the next 25 years.

Net result - our education system works for the benefit of some tosser in the Cayemen Islands, and money is hooved out the not just local economy but the national one.

Has anybody noticed who now owns Northgate ?

[conehead]

Kohlberg Kravis Roberts

 

Is there a prize