Internet upgrade - but not all the benefits we hoped for

[Ditto]

After much longer than we hoped, we finally have to FTTP 500/75 lines, each with it's own ONT and modem. With OpenReach's ineptitude it took 3 visits, including one where one of their chaps got stuck at the top of a pole in a crane cradle which broke down. No one knew how to manual bring it down, so in the end he clambered out and shimmied down the pole. I don't suppose HSE would be impressed!

 

Part of the expectation in terms of redundancy was two cable routings. Today, when the second line was to be installed, the engineer was relieved to find the first cable support multiple connections - so effectively virtually no physical redundancy. Running one line at 1000/150 is far less than 2 at 500/75.

 

I'm now wondering if the charity would be better having one FTTP, at either 500/75 or double, and keep one SoGEA line, so there is better physical redundancy.

 

What do you think? My guess is their will be little appetite from the charity for 4G or starlink. Internet down at the office would be bad, but not so critical the budget for the highest level of redundancy is going to be spent. We have a lot of remote workers and the reception could survive for a few hours on a Hotspot.

[MrEprise]

I've heard many go on about how inept Openreach is, yet my recent experience upgrading the school's internet from 500/500 to 1000/1000 (both FTTP) showed that there are a few engineers who definitely know their stuff over the majority who don't have a clue.

 

The day after I put the order in, 2 engineers turned up, identified an older existing feed which they thought would be fine, put a tester on it to check, went back to the exchange to find the other end and put a tester on that end, they were back within the hour to say that the cable was more than suitable, installed the NTE (which subsequently showed a green light on the connection) and they were gone after about 2 hours. Next day I received an email from the provider to say that Openreach would be in contact after 7-10 working days to book a visit to set our new connection up!

 

I ended up emailing them back to say that Openreach has already been in and gone and they thought that must have been for something else (we were also getting a connection put in for a new backup connection at the same time so assumed it be this). Day after got a notification from the provider to say that Openreach has given the green light and they can continue moving us over to the new connection. Guy I ended up speaking to couldn't believe that Openreach could be that quick and efficient.

 

In regards to the backup line, the independent contractor who came to install the connection didn't quite have much of a clue, couldn't find any usable lines and ended up referring the job back to Openreach. The engineer we got next day from Openreach was also a local resident and knew the infrastructure like the back of his hand. He'd also managed to sort a working connection for us same day!

[TechMonkey]

41 minutes ago, Ditto said:

Part of the expectation in terms of redundancy was two cable routings. Today, when the second line was to be installed, the engineer was relieved to find the first cable support multiple connections - so effectively virtually no physical redundancy. Running one line at 1000/150 is far less than 2 at 500/75.

Was this an expectation or actually specified in the spec/order?  Completely different routings normally costs a fair amount and even then has limitations. If the spec was different routes, then either you haven't been supplied with what you are paying, or they need to explain the difficulties.

[Ditto]

There have been a couple of updates since the last post! We have a classic rock and hard place with us in the middle. The line is procured by an ethical charity organisation - generally they have been good, but not faultless. We have outsourced IT due to lack of in-house expertise, who attend site once a quarter. From the outset, I made it abundantly clear they need to work together. They've been useless at that! The provider has just raised by mail that the benefit of redundancy has not been achieved and said they'd look in to options, but I doubt in so much as it is a contractual breach. He agreed with my view of holding off cancelling the SoGEA lines until the position is discussed. In the meantime, the outsourced IT technician said the 2 SoGEA lines were removed and he supports cancelling the service. It was the technician that proposed a FTTP and SoGEA mix for redundancy - albeit way to late in the process. He has also 'hidden' the modems from the procuring company and said that would notify us of any problems. The track record of the IT provided doing that is appaling. The procuring company were very good at it. I expect we will end up keeping the 2 FTTP services, just because that is the easy option, not the best technical solution or the most value for money. Couldn't find a sigh emoji, but that's what I need.

[Ditto]

With LM support, I'm going to suggest to my LM that we ask the ISP technical architect to act as moderator in a discussion between the appropriate parties and look at options and cost and to make a recommendation. The IT technician, contrary to previous views, is saying 2 lines gives 'operational flexibility', for example splitting the majority of the service to office staff, and a a smaller dedication to our guest provision. As I understand it, the two line feeds go out SonicWall TZ270. Couldn't one 1Gig line go to that and the same flexibility be provided by configuring the TZ270 appropriately? The saving over the contract term of one line over two, is about £1,600, so not a huge sum, but not trivial either.

[ITGuyNW]

We had Openreach install a backup line over Summer and it was a perfect demonstration as to why infrastructure is failing in this country. Each engineer who visited had no notes and had their own idea as to how to perform the job. The first said he would need a traffic order, four teams, one for height, one for accessing a flat roof, while the next one just went nah me and a colleague will sort it but he never returned.

 

Then the backup was going to come into our server room and terminate into an existing box. Then it was going to have its own ONT. Then they were going to change the existing box and do something else. Literally each Openreach person had their own ideas as to what to do and then it wouldn't happen.

 

It wasn't until the 5th visit that they actually managed to put a backup in.

 

Now we have issues with our primary line not achieving its full download speeds and Openreach are asking ME what has been done previously. It's an utter shambles. They are testing the lines on Monday and I said will this also take out the backup line? and they started asking me as if I worked for them. They seem to forget that I'm the customer. Treat me as if I have absolutely no clue.

 

The ISP couldn't have been more helpful but Openreach have been awful.

 

As a last resort, I'm currently testing just hotspotting 5G off my own phone into our Smoothwall... seems to give us enough for phones and basic connectivity on a very temporary basis. I'm going to look at a more professional setup soon.

[Wave9_Lee]

You'll only be able to keep your SOGEA connection for a short period once FttP becomes available fyi - will be stopsell from that exchange and existing services decommissioned eventually.

 

The Openreach engineer you get is often a bit of a lottery as many engineers are sub-contracted (i.e. Kellys etc) and more suited to consumer, many OR engineers not trained up on FttP etc.  Openreach have increased install prices to differentiate the service and 'add some value' for commercial/education installs, and are training up more engineers so should improve.  

 

Ref FttP resilience, best you can do currently is utilise 2 separate ISPs for 2 FttP connections - not brilliant physical separacy, but you will have some L3 diversity.  Bear in mind Openreach were charging sun £200 for install, so you get what you pay for.  Openreach also keep evolving the offer (evolving is the marketing term for changing their mind), so they used to install an ONT for each new FttP (costly but slightly more resilence) and now usually install a multiport ONT for FttP so second and third lines can be added easily (cheaper/quicker long term, but less on-prem resilience) - although this is also a lottery..

 

Given the critical nature of Internet for schools, Leased line still has a place in the market - uncontended, symmetrical, low latency and guaranteed physical separacy for those that need/can afford it.  In my mind, for larger schools, lease line with fttp backup, in active-active and via alternate ISPs is pretty optimum.

 

Key thing is choose a supplier who offers a good level of project management and proactive comms who will go to bat for you.

[dmj]

We setup two separate FTTP connections, to two separate ISP's in two separate exchanges.

It worked fine until Openreach did some unrelated work for another customer and cut through all our fibre 🙃

 

Nowdays, for backup I'd just get a consumer FTTP line. 2GB/s bi-directional is like £40/month

https://www.trooli.com/products/broadband-for-your-home

[Ditto]

On 04/09/2025 at 13:15, Wave9_Lee said:

You'll only be able to keep your SOGEA connection for a short period once FttP becomes available fyi - will be stopsell from that exchange and existing services decommissioned eventually.

 

The Openreach engineer you get is often a bit of a lottery as many engineers are sub-contracted (i.e. Kellys etc) and more suited to consumer, many OR engineers not trained up on FttP etc.  Openreach have increased install prices to differentiate the service and 'add some value' for commercial/education installs, and are training up more engineers so should improve.  

 

Ref FttP resilience, best you can do currently is utilise 2 separate ISPs for 2 FttP connections - not brilliant physical separacy, but you will have some L3 diversity.  Bear in mind Openreach were charging sun £200 for install, so you get what you pay for.  Openreach also keep evolving the offer (evolving is the marketing term for changing their mind), so they used to install an ONT for each new FttP (costly but slightly more resilence) and now usually install a multiport ONT for FttP so second and third lines can be added easily (cheaper/quicker long term, but less on-prem resilience) - although this is also a lottery..

 

Given the critical nature of Internet for schools, Leased line still has a place in the market - uncontended, symmetrical, low latency and guaranteed physical separacy for those that need/can afford it.  In my mind, for larger schools, lease line with fttp backup, in active-active and via alternate ISPs is pretty optimum.

 

Key thing is choose a supplier who offers a good level of project management and proactive comms who will go to bat for you.

Thanks for the input, really helpful. The switchover reminder is one of those obvious things so easily forgotten, so the FTTP/SoGEA mix is not a good idea. Perhaps the technician who suggested this, but now contradicts himself has realised this. There is an interesting discussion going on currently with our setup. We believe we have 2 fttp connection (lines?), but physical (at least for most of the connection path) reside in one physical cable. The open reach says we are providing 2 lines with one connecting cable. The people that procure the lines so it is definitely 2 lines! I think we need some clarity on what is a 'line', what is a 'connection', what is a cable. I suspect the physical separation is so minimal, we could run one service as 1G and save £1600, but the LM has given up on trying to understand what the true picture is. I can confirm we have 2 ONTs, each servicing it's own modem. I'm pretty certain things will stay as they are, and it all the kerfuffle, it's easy to forget we have moved massively forward since our two SoGEA lines. We are just awaiting to see if staff notice and improvement. As much for my own understanding, I'm still not clear if the one line option with  the TZ270, can effectively be configured to match the functional output of the 2 ONTS, 2 Modems and 2 Wifis (Main and Guest).

 

P.S. I'm going to try to get some photos of the physical layout - one is a shocker!

Edited September 7, 2025 by Ditto