Are ESS trying to make it harder to migrate away from to SIMS?

[FN-GM]

This might have already been posted (didn’t read all posts), but I saw this yesterday on LinkedIn.

 

[ABR82]

In 2003, Capita (the then owner of SIMS) gave the Office of Fair Trading (the forerunner of the Competition and Markets Authority) Voluntary Assurances that it would make it possible for third parties who had entered into an agreement with ESS to extract data from SIMS via Application Programming Interfaces (APIs).

from: https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/mis-migrations-setting-story-straight

 

Any day to day user of SIMS will not be at all surprised at their insistence that you're only getting exactly what you got 20 years ago...

[synaesthesia]

from: https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/mis-migrations-setting-story-straight

 

Any day to day user of SIMS will not be at all surprised at their insistence that you're only getting exactly what you got 20 years ago...

 

ESS/SIMS couldn't set a story straight if they were reading from a book with a ruler. They reek of desperation.

[nicholab]

ESS/SIMS couldn't set a story straight if they were reading from a book with a ruler. They reek of desperation.

 

I upset someone on LinkedIn “saying I do hope this end up in front of a select committee! These criminals deserve nothing less than being charged with stealing from the Taxpayer!”

[Olliekai]

Maybe they just want to be able to do assessment without it changing, and breaking, every term.

Or be able to reuse reports they've made last year, without the entire system being broken in an attempt to shift everyone to Quick reports.

Or not have slow down every Monday morning, or at the start of a new term.

Or be able to rely on scheduled reports coming out when expected.

Or be able to merge contacts for students.

Or be able to make a timetable of rooms being used quickly and easily without resorting to a Pivot Tables.

 

There are a lot of things I like about Bromcom, but the nature of it being cloud based has meant they has pumped out a lot of updates, which we have no control over, that has then broken a lot of the functionality that had worked previously. I can see the appeal of a system that has great and flexible functionality that, in the main, rarely gets changed to the point it doesn't work anymore, or having to completely uproot your previous work.

 

It’s a fair point, but let’s not pretend SIMS don’t break things after each update and release a dozen patches.

[PotNoodleTech]

Wow I have a few days off and this thread has sure escalated!

 

Well done to Bromcom and Arbor for taking on ESS.

[synaesthesia]

Since when has there been any sort of encryption on the SIMS SQL database other than what's provided with the SA password? What makes the tables in a standard SQL database proprietary enough to be considered IP? have we all been naughty people for diving straight into said database because in the time it takes SIMS to run a report, we could extract the data ourselves and leave enough time for breakfast, second breakfast and brunch?

[dmj]

Since when has there been any sort of encryption on the SIMS SQL database other than what's provided with the SA password? What makes the tables in a standard SQL database proprietary enough to be considered IP?

It's not the standard table that would be copyrighted, its the schema: the relationship between those tables.

[TheCookieMonster]

Well done to Bromcom and Arbor they deserve all the success coming their way currently.

[Ditto]

Something I wanted to come back to. IP is often protected with 'patents'. Does anyone have the appropriate SIMS license and/or other documentation that claims patent ownership or anything else that is relevant to IP?

[HarkNowHear]

We've had a flurry of emails to schools this morning from ESS referencing this. Interesting times!

[dmj]

Something I wanted to come back to. IP is often protected with 'patents'. Does anyone have the appropriate SIMS license and/or other documentation that claims patent ownership or anything else that is relevant to IP?

 

Software patents aren't really a think in UK law, having said that, it's complicated. Even so, I'm 99% sure you couldn't patent a database schema like this. It's going to come down to copyright, and I can't see there is a case there either. IANAL

 

edit snip from the wikipedia

 

Patent laws in the UK and throughout Europe specify a non-exhaustive list of excluded things that are not regarded as inventions to the extent that a patent application relates to the excluded thing as such. This list includes programs for computers.

Edited February 13, 2024 by dmj

[DrCheese]

We've had a flurry of emails to schools this morning from ESS referencing this. Interesting times!

 

The email is equally full of cope.

 

Some of these companies are now saying they will cover a school’s legal costs on some unspecified basis should wrongful behaviour be established. This is an irresponsible and unethical way to behave and suggests that these companies know that their actions infringe ESS’s IP.

 

Wrong - It suggests the companies have confidence that they will win any court case that arises as a result of this.

 

It is not safe because scripts or programs written by others to extract data directly from a SIMS database can’t guarantee the integrity and accuracy of the data they extract.

Utter nonsense. Anyone with basic knowledgedge of how unencrypted databases work can see this.

 

It’s not right because a SIMS database contains over 1.5 million lines of ESS program code and other valuable ESS Intellectual Property (IP).

No it doesn't?

[synaesthesia]

Sorry, slight hijack but "full of cope"?

 

Am I getting old?

[PotNoodleTech]

Sorry, slight hijack but "full of cope"?

 

Am I getting old?

 

I just checked my chalk and slate copy of the oxford english dictionary and it's not there.

 

It must be some kind of new fangled modern slang word?

[DrCheese]

Ah sorry It's a phrase that's evolved from Twitter - eg Means upset, seething, coming up with nonsense to reject something

[Sephiroth]

It’s not right because a SIMS database contains over 1.5 million lines of ESS program code and other valuable ESS Intellectual Property (IP).

No it doesn't?

If they are referring to the stored functions and programmability processes in the database, they may actually be right on that. Though I'm not going through them all and counting the lines, I would guess that someone at ESS has done exactly that to come up with a figure.

[Ditto]

Haha - and there was me looking for "COPE" meaning on google - so much better to just ask! Being honest, I would think the pre Twitter era expression of "full of sh*t" would do the job better

[dmj]

It is not safe because scripts or programs written by others to extract data directly from a SIMS database can’t guarantee the integrity and accuracy of the data they extract.

Utter nonsense. Anyone with basic knowledgedge of how unencrypted databases work can see this.

It’s not right because a SIMS database contains over 1.5 million lines of ESS program code and other valuable ESS Intellectual Property (IP).

 

No it doesn't?

 

Sorry I just want to pick up on these two points.

 

point 1) is actually fair - database extract is a pretty terrible way to get data and they are correct that it doesn't guarantee data integrity, a seemingly insignificant database migration could cause a lot of mishap. An API is usually a far better way to do this, but in ESS/SIMS case their API is just insufficient so there's no real alternative.

 

Point b) an SQL extract contains all the information required to build a copy of the schema - it *is* their code, their SQL instructions etc, etc. They have the right to claim copyright over it to prevent others from making derivative work, but nobody is doing that, so they are scaremongering plain and simple.

[DGardiner]

Sorry I just want to pick up on these two points.

 

point 1) is actually fair - database extract is a pretty terrible way to get data and they are correct that it doesn't guarantee data integrity, a seemingly insignificant database migration could cause a lot of mishap. An API is usually a far better way to do this, but in ESS/SIMS case their API is just insufficient so there's no real alternative.

 

Point b) an SQL extract contains all the information required to build a copy of the schema - it *is* their code, their SQL instructions etc, etc. They have the right to claim copyright over it to prevent others from making derivative work, but nobody is doing that, so they are scaremongering plain and simple.

probably more likely theyre using the stored functions to extract the data easier rather than reading the mess of the database and reassembling it to suit their needs

[AnglianEdu]

We've had a flurry of emails to schools this morning from ESS referencing this. Interesting times!

Indeed, we've had a lot of people who have got the email throughout the course of today, including many people who we wouldn't expect ESS to send an email to. They really are going through the belt and braces approach.

 

Did make me smile in some places though. Both in terms of some of the things they said in the later half of the email about data exports and the early bit about BETT, my colleagues recollection is different

Edited February 13, 2024 by AnglianEdu

[Bromcom_John]

Ah sorry It's a phrase that's evolved from Twitter - eg Means upset, seething, coming up with nonsense to reject something

 

It also manifests in the online gaming community as a thing to take if you cannot handle losing "Copium"

[DrCheese]

It also manifests in the online gaming community as a thing to take if you cannot handle losing "Copium"

Yeah I spend too much of my spare time playing Fortnite competitively so that's probably bleed into my speech from that as well

Edited February 13, 2024 by DrCheese

[DrCheese]

Sorry I just want to pick up on these two points.

 

point 1) is actually fair - database extract is a pretty terrible way to get data and they are correct that it doesn't guarantee data integrity, a seemingly insignificant database migration could cause a lot of mishap. An API is usually a far better way to do this, but in ESS/SIMS case their API is just insufficient so there's no real alternative.

 

Point b) an SQL extract contains all the information required to build a copy of the schema - it *is* their code, their SQL instructions etc, etc. They have the right to claim copyright over it to prevent others from making derivative work, but nobody is doing that, so they are scaremongering plain and simple.

 

Ah yeah fair enough

With Point 1 I suspect the other vendors will argue that SIMS are being deliberately obstructive by insisting they use SIMS reports to do migration - To get a full dump of all the data would require an almighty report (& knowing SIMS, probably kill the sims server requiring you to get in touch with ESS..) so they'll argue they aren't complying with the spirit of competition rules.

 

Point B) - Yeah I recant what I said, but yes they are just scaremongering. I do feel like they are just upset at the level of migration going on and finding whatever they can to kick off.

[Ditto]

They've blogged again... https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/mis-migrations-setting-story-straight-part-2

 

It does go on rather.