[tv show] Sky and Channel 4 strike deal to show 2021 Formula 1 season finale live...

[paulkerton]

Those claiming that Mercedes threw it away by not stopping, I'm not sure that that's fair. They based their decision in part on rules that weren't properly followed, as well as on the basis of not wanting to cede track position during a safety car 5 laps from the end. Like, who'd do that and then run round to finish 2nd behind a safety car? If they're expected to factor in an unpredictable departure from the rulebook and base their decision on that, what kind of bizarre competition is that??

 

The rules were properly followed. Mercedes claim they weren't, the FIA reject that.

 

Max at the end took a gamble on changing tyres. It worked. Mercedes decided not to. That's how it works. What kind of bizarre competition would allow the face to finish a lap early, or behind a safety car when it wasn't needed anymore just so an angry short-tempered Austrian and an arrogant Brit can get their own way?

 

Oh and Max changed his first set of hard tyres under the virtual safety car, which then Lewis complained about because it only put him 14 seconds behind not 23. THAT is when Lewis should've changed his.

 

He then changed again to softs under the full safety car.

 

Lewis had two opportunities to take advantage of the virtual and then real safety car to change his tyres, and failed to do so, both times.

Absolutely fair to point out the strategy failed him.

 

Next you'll be complaining its unfair Checo held him up!

Edited December 13, 2021 by paulkerton

[Boredguy]

Lewis could have pitted at any point when the VC/SC came out, but would have ensured that Max ended up P1 on track. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

[mw184]

I think strategy wise though this goes back to the very start of the safety car period. With 8 laps left (I believe it was 8) there was always a chance the incident gets cleared away in maybe 4 laps and underway again. It is always a gamble and surly as a race team you cannot bank on the race finishing under safety car. That decision has to be made immediately and stuck with before there is any indication of how long it will take to clear the incident, so you have to make that call and hope it was right. This time Mercedes came off worse. It is those split second decisions at the start of an SC (often before we even know what happened to call it out) which are the big ones.

 

I am in no way saying that the restart was fair and correct as everyone will have a different opinion on that and that's up to the stewards (glad I don't have their job right now), but strategy decisions were made way before the end of that safety car.

[paulkerton]

Lewis could have pitted at any point when the VC/SC came out, but would have ensured that Max ended up P1 on track. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

Absolutely not true. At all.

Under the VC he was more than enough seconds ahead to get out ahead and back into P1.

[mw184]

Also if he had pitted and Max didn't under the VSC and Max stayed out, Lewis would have been chasing him on fresh tires when Max had dying softs. I would have taken those odds any day!

[tmoon-mint]

Daniel Ricciardo:

 

 

 

Why only those 5 cars allowed to unlap themselves? Why not other lapped cars between lead lap runners? Do Sainz and the rest not deserve a fair crack at improving their position also?

 

Those claiming that Mercedes threw it away by not stopping, I'm not sure that that's fair. They based their decision in part on rules that weren't properly followed, as well as on the basis of not wanting to cede track position during a safety car 5 laps from the end. Like, who'd do that and then run round to finish 2nd behind a safety car? If they're expected to factor in an unpredictable departure from the rulebook and base their decision on that, what kind of bizarre competition is that??

 

If they let all cars overtake then the race would have ended behind the safety car and Lewis would have won the race. Totally unfair on the midfield runners as well that were essentially made a lap down to their closest competitors by this. The whole thing just feels setup to me.

[jnfarmer]

Anybody else looking forward to the 2022 season? Can't wait to see the new cars!

[mw184]

I am! Looking forward to the prospect of more on track fighting as well, instead of following a second or so behind like in Mexico because of downforce losses and overheating, hoping for some good fights all over the grid!

[Boredguy]

Had he pitted under the VSC, Max would have stayed out as he was told to do the opposite to Lewis from what we saw, but thats the same hindsight call we can made on every VSC/SC pit stop.

Yes Lewis could have pitted on the 2nd VSC lap for tyres, but I don't thing even then it would have had enough time as it wasn't out for too long, and I'm sure it was notified it was ending when he was going through sector 3. Again it's luck of the draw in that respect and isn't really the contentious issue.

 

[edit] there was only 5.7 seconds between 1st and 2nd when the VSC came out

 

Red Bull by being 2nd on the road could always cover what Lewis did, and had Perez to help slow him down had he pitted and ended up behind both. The only reason they pulled him in to retire under the safety car was to prevent the engine failing which might of been different had the Williams not gone into the wall so hard or in a different location, but thats just my speculation. On the whole it was a good race until the last 2 minutes

Edited December 13, 2021 by Boredguy

[Griff]

Anybody else looking forward to the 2022 season? Can't wait to see the new cars!

 

Oh hell yeah new cars, lots of young drivers its going to be epic. If its anything close to this season its going to be amazing I haven't been this interested in F1 in a very long time. I think the tag line for 2022 should be “It’s called motor racing"

[jnfarmer]

I really hope McLaren put a good package together, would be great to see Lando and Danny Ric fighting for some wins.

[jthompson]

Lewis could have pitted at any point when the VC/SC came out, but would have ensured that Max ended up P1 on track. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

 

Yeah, I think this is it. Keeping track position is more of a concern for Hamilton than for Verstappen, given that Verstappen had the countback in his back pocket. Not suggesting Verstappen is liekly to pull a Schumacher, but it'd be a factor. Verstappen having enough buffer to 3rd place at either the VSC or SC, when Hamilton doesn't have the same over 2nd, gives Red Bull the initiative over Mercedes, and they played it as they should in order to be in a position to capitalise on any late opportunity to pounce. I don't think Mercedes can really be criticised for that.

 

The SC was 5 laps from the end, and Red Bull will just do the opposite pit call to Mercedes (who have to call it first). 4 laps is pretty tight to get back to green, so the odds [normally] are that it'd be SC running to the end. Not a normal race, and I guess there was a particularly strong desire to have the season end under green.

[paulkerton]

Formula One : It's Called A Motor Race, Okay? We Went Car Racing™

 

Is anyone selling the T-shirt yet btw?

Edited December 13, 2021 by paulkerton

[Boredguy]

Oh and everyone forgot that Seb won the "Overtaking" championship so gets all the jelly babies

[jthompson]

Formula One : It's Called A Motor Race, Okay? We Went Car Racing™

 

Is anyone selling the T-shirt yet btw?

 

This reminds of a Moto GP race yonks ago (2004?), when Valentino Rosso muscled past Sete Gibernau on the final corner to take the win, with Gibernau run on to the gravel. Rossi's response after the race? " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ We race bikes".

[Disease]

Daniel Ricciardo:

 

 

 

Why only those 5 cars allowed to unlap themselves? Why not other lapped cars between lead lap runners? Do Sainz and the rest not deserve a fair crack at improving their position also?

 

Those claiming that Mercedes threw it away by not stopping, I'm not sure that that's fair. They based their decision in part on rules that weren't properly followed, as well as on the basis of not wanting to cede track position during a safety car 5 laps from the end. Like, who'd do that and then run round to finish 2nd behind a safety car? If they're expected to factor in an unpredictable departure from the rulebook and base their decision on that, what kind of bizarre competition is that??

 

That is not true as you can clearly hear the discussion between Hamilton and his engineer asking why he had not changed his tires and the answer was we would lose track position, that was all they were concerned about and it was the wrong call.

[jthompson]

Anybody else looking forward to the 2022 season? Can't wait to see the new cars!

 

I'm hoping that Ferrari will stop being so crap. I'm not an admirer of theirs, particularly, but Sainz and Leclerc are being wasted at that team at the moment, and whilst Ferrari aren't in a silly 'superstar plus support driver' state of mind, it'd be good to see them challenging for poles and wins.

 

Hoping that Norris, Russell, Sainz and Leclerc all get to make a step forwards next year and get in the mix a bit more.

[jthompson]

That is not true as you can clearly hear the discussion between Hamilton and his engineer asking why he had not changed his tires and the answer was we would lose track position, that was all they were concerned about and it was the wrong call.

 

Yes, they would have lost track position. That was the point I made, but saying that it was the wrong call with only 5 laps to go is not fair, imho. Staying out for the ealier VSC looked like an okay call, since as it transpired, Verstappen wouldn't have traversed the gap under green running.

 

It's true that Mercedes have been undone by bad calls of this kind in the past, though. Yesterday, not such a clear one.

[paulkerton]

Yes, they would have lost track position. That was the point I made, but saying that it was the wrong call with only 5 laps to go is not fair, imho.

 

During the race Verstappen went in THREE TIMES.... and won! It was ABSOLUTELY the wrong call not to go in.

 

Max - Lap 13 - Soft to Hard

Lewis - Lap 14 - Medium to Hard

== Lap 20/21 Checo holds up Lewis - Lewis complains that someone racing him is "dangerous" ==

Max - Lap 36 - Hard to Hard - under Virtual Safety Car

=52 - Latifi crash=

Max - Lap 53 - Hard to Soft - Under Safety Car

Edited December 13, 2021 by paulkerton

[Ironside]

I mean end of the day the FIA broke the rules, Masi only told cars between Ver and Ham to overtake the safety car for the sole purpose of creating a last lap shootout that Hamilton was never gonna win. If he cared to create a shootout that much, Red Flag as soon as Latifi hits the wall, let Ham change his tires as per red flag rules, put the grid in order, dramatic 4 laps of mayhem, netflix goes home happy and FIA doesn't get sued

[jthompson]

During the race Verstappen went in THREE TIMES.... and won! It was ABSOLUTELY the wrong call not to go in.

 

Max - Lap 13 - Soft to Hard

Lewis - Lap 14 - Medium to Hard

== Lap 20/21 Checo holds up Lewis - Lewis complains that someone racing him is "dangerous" ==

Max - Lap 36 - Hard to Hard - under Virtual Safety Car

=52 - Latifi crash=

Max - Lap 53 - Hard to Soft - Under Safety Car

I don't share your view that Mercedes have only themselves to blame.

 

When it comes to tyres and strategy, I think I prefer endurance racing. Audi won Le Mans one year by quintuple stinting their final set of tyres. Now that's a gutsy call from the pitwall.

[XiJ]

So it seems we all agree Masi made decisions that artificially affected the race.

[robyholmes]

So it seems we all agree Masi made decisions that artificially affected the race.

That seems to some it up. Masi and the stewards didn't want to get involved, but got very involved.

 

Why didn't they just go racing for one lap with lapped cars in between. Let Merc and Red Bull lobby other teams to move or hold rather than lobbying the stewards.

 

Teams should be able to contact the race director, but the race director should reply with the rule code they are following. "We are doing 12.3". That's that, if you want to protest it, do it after the race.

 

Masi doesn't have respect like Charlie did because he tries to justify decisions, which just encourages teams to fire back. Decision made, done, move on.

[paulkerton]

I mean end of the day the FIA broke the rules,

No, they didn't.

 

 

Red Flag as soon as Latifi hits the wall

But apparently you want the race director to make new rules up to benefit Mercedes....

 

I don't share your view that Mercedes have only themselves to blame.

 

You don't have to share my view, but it's clear that they got the strategy wrong when you've got Lewis in the faster car on tyres that couldn't keep up with a slower car on fresher tyres. Especially when Lewis had the chance 10 laps prior to change them and didn't take them because his team thought race position meant more than a tyre change.

Edited December 14, 2021 by paulkerton

[Boredguy]

Especially when Lewis had the chance 10 laps prior to change them and didn't take them because his team thought race position meant more than a tyre change.

In a normal race, track position is always key and as Max himself said after the race it was unlikely he would have been able to catch Lewis before the end on his fresher tyres since he was no-where near the 0.8 seconds a laps faster at that point. He needed a miracle and the racing gods provided with a Williams at Turn 14 (a corner Masi had said would not trigger a red flag if an accident occurred after Kimi crashed there earlier in the weekend... which is strange as who knows how bad a crash could have been)

 

I know you like a good debate, but logically looking at the time between cars, time needed to pit (even under a VSC & SC) there was no way the leader could have pitted and retained track position regardless of the team and driver at that point. It's a pure numbers game.