Cloud-based Timetabling Software

[DavidYoung]

Hello,

 

We are starting a project to move our trust away from SIMS to a new, fully-cloud-based MIS system (not chosen yet, early days).

 

Part of this is obviously the timetable, but it seems most timetabling software is Windows based. We would love to be able to use a proper cloud product, does anyone know if anything exists that is fully cloud, web based?

 

Thanks

 

David

[TechMonkey]

There is nothing we have found that is powerful enough and exports to the main MIS I'm afraid. We looked. I've asked Timetabler if they are looking at updating their system as I feel it is creaking and becoming clunky but was told that their users love it and they have had no complaints.

 

EDIT: Saying that I'm sure Bromcom have a web based timetabler module coming next year.

Edited October 8, 2021 by TechMonkey

[slugshead]

iSAMS is available in a fully cloud based solution these days, we're still using the on-prem version (No plans to go cloud after past experience migrating to SIMS cloud offering) but perhaps add them to your MIS selection/comparison. Our students download their timetables at the beginning of the year and import them into their google calendars.

[dhicks]

I've asked Timetabler if they are looking at updating their system as I feel it is creaking and becoming clunky but was told that their users love it and they have had no complaints.

 

Timetabler does run quite nicely via remote desktop. I investigated creating a solution to host instances of Timetaler on a remote server, with integrated GSuite / O365 logins. As a project I think it's quite do-able, and less work than, say, re-writing Timetabler to generate a web interface or implementing a timetabling application from scratch, however there would still be some integration work to do (adding options to import / export data via the browser), and Windows licensing costs. Costs would be about double the yearly cost for Timetabler at the moment - not actually too bad, but you'd have to convince schools to pay double the price for something that, from there point of view, looks exactly the same.

[TechMonkey]

iSAMS is available in a fully cloud based solution these days

Doesn't have a full timetabling module though. You have to create the timetable in an external program in import to iSAMS

[TechMonkey]

Timetabler does run quite nicely via remote desktop. I investigated creating a solution to host instances of Timetaler on a remote server, with integrated GSuite / O365 logins. As a project I think it's quite do-able, and less work than, say, re-writing Timetabler to generate a web interface or implementing a timetabling application from scratch, however there would still be some integration work to do (adding options to import / export data via the browser), and Windows licensing costs. Costs would be about double the yearly cost for Timetabler at the moment - not actually too bad, but you'd have to convince schools to pay double the price for something that, from there point of view, looks exactly the same.

 

We used to offer it as an option but we have closed RDP due to all the security concerns. But that would just be an interim step. A full cloud solution would cost less than a TS option. I know interface shouldn't be taken above function but Timetabler is showing its age. It often does strange things on dual screens, the interface is very SIMS and doesn't follow modern MS conventions. I like the software, I mean it is really easy to install and maintain, but with thoughts to future of the school network, working practices and cloud enabled software it may end up like SIMS and be dropped because it doesn't keep up.

[supportman]

We found this one which looks pretty good.

 

Skolaris: Online school timetable software

 

Bromcom is lacking in this area sadly.

[paulkerton]

Most cloud MIS tools seem to revert to desktop for timetabling unfortunately. One of them really should try acquiring Skolaris!

[TechMonkey]

We found this one which looks pretty good.

 

Skolaris: Online school timetable software

 

Bromcom is lacking in this area sadly.

 

Are you using it in anger or just found it and hoping to use it? I've seen it but not found anyone that actually uses it. Plus as usual no one is willing to actually run with the idea of changing.

[supportman]

Are you using it in anger or just found it and hoping to use it? I've seen it but not found anyone that actually uses it. Plus as usual no one is willing to actually run with the idea of changing.

 

I tested it and watched all the youtube videos. Our Timetabler was also on board after watching it. Sadly we ended up buying timetabler.co.uk instead after it was needed very quickly.

 

I'm usually not one for short term solutions, but at the time we had to get something quick. Hopefully we will go back to it in the future.

 

Skolaris Software - YouTube

[DavidYoung]

Thanks everyone. As mentioned, most MIS systems, even if cloud based either don't have their own timetabling offering or it is a legacy Windows app.

 

Skolaris looks interesting, it doesn't appear to support SIMS which means we might need to wait till next year depending on timing (we were hoping we might be able to start using a new timetable package before the main MIS move).

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

We used to offer it as an option but we have closed RDP due to all the security concerns.

 

Same, we took our RD gateway offline and everyone has to use the VPN now which is clunky. Security is one of the major reasons for moving away from SIMS.

[Danp]

Doesn't have a full timetabling module though. You have to create the timetable in an external program in import to iSAMS

 

You can create a csv and import into iSAMS. We don't have a timetabling software, plan our timetable in Google Sheets. I turn that into a csv and import in

[Keith-Johnson]

There is a natural inclination for everyone to assume that software should be "in the Cloud". But it depends! It depends on the purpose and use of the software.

In particular the reasons for an MIS and for timetabling software are very different.

 

A MIS is multi-user, and deals with current data, ...and is therefore ideal for Cloud software.

 

Timetabling is different. Because of the inter-connectedness of all the data, it is logically impossible to be truly multi-user (an action by one User would change the universe for every other User!).

And timetabling does not use the current data in the MIS ...It works with notional and conjectured data for next year.

 

For both these reasons, for timetabling there is no advantage in cloud computing .

 

[And Users wanting to work in different locations can easily store & access the data via Dropbox, GoogleDrive, etc.]

[FN-GM]

for timetabling there is no advantage in cloud computing .

 

That isn’t true. I can think of a few off top of my head.

 

1. If it’s web based you’re not tied to a particular operating system. You’re not stuck with Windows. More and more schools are moving away from Windows.

 

2. If web based it doesn’t require installation. Also updates are easier to manage. Reduced overheads.

 

3. The risk of loosing data is reduced.

Edited October 29, 2021 by FN-GM

[Ditto]

There is a natural inclination for everyone to assume that software should be "in the Cloud". But it depends! It depends on the purpose and use of the software.

In particular the reasons for an MIS and for timetabling software are very different.

A MIS is multi-user, and deals with current data, ...and is therefore ideal for Cloud software.

Timetabling is different. Because of the inter-connectedness of all the data, it is logically impossible to be truly multi-user (an action by one User would change the universe for every other User!).

And timetabling does not use the current data in the MIS ...It works with notional and conjectured data for next year.

For both these reasons, for timetabling there is no advantage in cloud computing .

[And Users wanting to work in different locations can easily store & access the data via Dropbox, GoogleDrive, etc.]

I don't think it is everyone thinking that, especially not here. I suspect there are some leadership staff who may slip in to that thought process, but several very large MATS have moved to cloud based MIS following vigorous decision making processes and for good reasons. Is timetabling different? Well, yes in some ways, but in many other ways, no. I disagree there 'is no advantage in cloud computing' for timetabling software. I think you are underestimating the value to a school of having software releases and updates managed for them, having the appropriate security in place, having a strong reliable backup process and built in redundancy, scalability, access anywhere you have an internet connection and more. To achieve those things, you need a well architected cloud based solution of course, but very few schools can compete with the infrastructure and expertise of a well run cloud bases software implementation.

 

Whilst overall I agree Cloud based software isn't always the best option, equally, just because legacy ways of working still work, doesn't mean new ways can't be better.

[Keith-Johnson]

1. "More and more schools are moving away from Windows."

It would be interesting to know the figures.

 

2. "updates are easier to manage. Reduced overheads."

True, it's a way of reducing IT staff & support.

 

3. "The risk of losing data is reduced."

Mmm? Arguable!

[FN-GM]

It would be interesting to know the figures.

 

I would be keen to see this as well. Many on here including my pervious MAT moved heaps of computers to ChomeOS. We were actively changing everything so it wasn’t tied to Windows.

 

 

3. "The risk of losing data is reduced."

Mmm? Arguable!

 

We had a hardware failure between backups and lost timetabler data. Wouldn’t have been such a big deal if it was a SaaS could service.

Edited October 29, 2021 by FN-GM

[Ditto]

2. "updates are easier to manage. Reduced overheads."

True, it's a way of reducing IT staff & support.

I hope the implication isn't that high maintenance software is good to stick with to keep people in a job - history shows that never ends well! Yes, reduce IT staff support workload to allow them the time to do the stuff that really enhances the educational experience for the pupils in school.

[Ditto]

I would be keen to see this as well. Many on here including my pervious MAT moved heaps of computers to ChomeOS. We were actively changing everything so it wasn’t tied to Windows.

 

 

 

 

We had a hardware failure between backups and lost timetabler data. Wouldn’t have been such a big deal if it was a SaaS could service.

My last role, where I did a tiny amount of timetabling (as a Data Manager) was about 90% ChromeOS. A couple of things forced us to use Windows, one was timetabling software, another was that software that processes EDI files for exams stuff (can't remember it's name).

[TechMonkey]

What is also being over looked is the general move to cloud. Currently we have Timetabler installed on a App server and the shortcut given to those that use it. But, if we move to a more cloud centric model, the App server would become redundant as users would want to use the software wherever they are on whatever device they are using. A single piece of software holding that up would be looked at pretty critically by management and alternatives asked for. If alternatives are being asked for someone will fill it.

 

Having the data stored centrally in SharePoint or GoogleDrive is an alternative, but now I have to ensure every install of Timetabler is kept up to date separately, rather than one central install we have currently. We all know that this will be forgotten until the day they want to start working on the timetable.

[paulkerton]

2. "updates are easier to manage. Reduced overheads."

True, it's a way of reducing IT staff & support.

I mean, we need to make sure software is as difficult to support, maintain and use as possible in order to keep people in jobs is a take, isn't it?

[DavidYoung]

There is a natural inclination for everyone to assume that software should be "in the Cloud". But it depends! It depends on the purpose and use of the software.

In particular the reasons for an MIS and for timetabling software are very different.

 

A MIS is multi-user, and deals with current data, ...and is therefore ideal for Cloud software.

 

Timetabling is different. Because of the inter-connectedness of all the data, it is logically impossible to be truly multi-user (an action by one User would change the universe for every other User!).

And timetabling does not use the current data in the MIS ...It works with notional and conjectured data for next year.

 

For both these reasons, for timetabling there is no advantage in cloud computing .

 

[And Users wanting to work in different locations can easily store & access the data via Dropbox, GoogleDrive, etc.]

 

I see there have been a lot of responses already but my thoughts:

 

I would challenge your conclusion that there is no advantage in the cloud based on the limited scope of your argument. Other reasons for cloud software, aside from the multi-user aspect:

 

Security & Data Protection - On-premise infrastructure, particularly based on Windows is inherently far more insecure than properly designed cloud systems. This is a fact that we have resigned ourselves to so are moving as much as possible to the cloud.

 

Accessibility and Compatibility - You mention storing the data on a cloud storage platform such as Google Drive, but that still requires a Windows PC to run the software. All our staff have Chromebooks now so want something web-based.

 

I would also challenge your argument that timetabling cannot be multi-user, for better or worse, we have about 3-4 people who work on the timetable at one of our schools which results in many problems because the data is stored in monolithic files, as the users have to coordinate their access with everyone else involved and if more than one person tried to make changes, they will overwrite data. Unfortunately, our timetable is much more live, not something that simply gets set up before the start of the year but often requires changes throughout the year.

 

Thanks for your input into the discussion.

 

David

[Primus]

As others have said, if you don't get your software into the cloud someone else will come along and steal your customers - see SIMS, losing customers in an accelerated fashion.

[supportman]

I really do hope timetabler.co.uk goes cloud in the near future. We are a customer and will move or pay more immediatly.

 

The move to cloud is not really debatable now, although I understand your points.

[DavidYoung]

1. "More and more schools are moving away from Windows."

It would be interesting to know the figures.

 

2. "updates are easier to manage. Reduced overheads."

True, it's a way of reducing IT staff & support.

 

3. "The risk of losing data is reduced."

Mmm? Arguable!

 

1. I have 8, 5 within my trust and 3 I'm supporting to move away from Windows.

 

2. Yes, we need to reduce the workload of IT staff so we can do more with the same size of team, our time shouldn't be spent keeping single applications up-to-date. It is generally the applications that are used by the fewest people that cause the most work for us. Proper cloud-based software that thousands of our users rely on every day cause us a tiny overhead comparatively.

 

3. Yes, it is if the service is run by a competent vendor who have far more resources than schools to protect and backup our data.