Discord - Student Hubs

[paulkerton]

Of course I forgot to add, in order to take part in student hubs, students need to verify their account. So blocking emails from discord will stop anyone using the student hub functionality.

 

Because of course, if it didn't work like that, it would be even bigger a safeguarding concern, cause just about anyone could jump in to a school hub and talk to underage children. Pretty creepy.

[mavhc]

You can't talk to people on the student hub, as it's a list of servers, not a server

[paulkerton]

 

Just so everyone is aware of the facts, rather than evidence less conjecture.

https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/4406046651927-Discord-Student-Hubs-FAQ

 

A Discord Student Hub is a place for students to meet classmates from their school.

Each hub is only accessible to users with an email address associated with that school. Students will be able to find other classmates that have joined the hub, add their servers to the hub, and find their classmates' servers, all in one place.

 

Are we pretending DMs don't exist? That they can't create a server designed for people just in the student hub? Or that Discord have a way of managing over 18s who have left who previously joined the hub several years previously? Are we pretending someone couldn't point a 4chan server into the student hub? Or a mgtow server? or use it to co-ordinate negative behaviours? Yes, this could all be done via other third party tools, but allowing your email systems to be used to verify membership essentially gives students the facilities to make it really easy to find each other in a third party solution - that is crazy. We shouldn't be allowing third parties to use your systems to essentially build a database of who goes to your school.

 

Could they find each other using your 365, Google etc platform? Yes, but then at least you have some control and logging of what's occurring.

 

It's a safeguarding issue, and there is no other way around that I'm afraid.

Edited November 11, 2021 by paulkerton

[mavhc]

> That they can't create a server designed for people just in the student hub?

 

wasn't the opposite point the previous objection?

 

They could just require re-authenticating every year

 

> Allowing your email systems to be used to verify membership essentially gives students the facilities to make it really easy to find each other in a third party solution - that is crazy

 

Well, that's the question, is that crazy? Do we want them to find their school friends, or find random people on the internet who aren't their school friends?

[Ironside]

There is no school hub server, so you can't invite anyone to it.

 

There's 1000s of discord servers for studying, sounds educational to me

 

I've banned search engines as they contain adult content, and other people, and things with your school name in that aren't run by your school, and they profile you.

 

And blocking emails from discord to school will in no way will stop anyone using it.

 

"There is no school hub server, so you can't invite anyone to it.

 

There's 1000s of discord servers for studying, sounds educational to me"

 

Discord contains many inappropriate servers so shouldn't be usable on school infrastructure anyhow, and based on what we can gather from Discord's comments on student hubs (Discord Student Hubs Guidelines – Discord) (Student Hubs FAQ - Discord), they will be able to find their classmate's servers, and server owners will be able to add their servers to hubs.

 

In fact, hubs actually link several servers together based on school email addresses, so it's not jsut one student hub server, it could be several, dramatically increasing workload.

 

While discord says you can only join a hub with a school email address, it also says "Servers in a Hub are student-run but may include non-students.", indicating that servers in the hub can contain non-students, which is another vector for safeguarding incidents.

 

"I've banned search engines as they contain adult content, and other people, and things with your school name in that aren't run by your school, and they profile you."

 

Last time I checked Bing didn't let students communicate in a practically unmoderated, unsafeguarded fashion with students, teachers and random strangers on the internet using a school email address. Do you actually have a point or are you just going to make ridiculous comparisons to software and services that have no relation to the topic at hand?

 

"And blocking emails from discord to school will in no way will stop anyone using it."

 

It stops it from being a problem linked to school IT systems and instead treat as any other form of cyberbullying/safeguarding breach over social media. It's called foresight.

[Garacesh]

There is no school hub server, so you can't invite anyone to it.

 

You can't talk to people on the student hub, as it's a list of servers, not a server

 

I think it's clear that people are using "student hub" and "servers advertised to users via the student hub" interchangeably.

I don't think it's too much of a reach to understand this concept.

 

Safeguarding is an incredibly complex and significant part of our jobs, and as such discussions are important to hash out. Please leave the pedantry at the door, it does nothing to further the discussion.

 

---

 

To Discord's credit, they've at least amended the TOS for student hubs to include a ban on 'graphic or sexual content', as well as restrictions against bullying, harassment, controlled substances, regulated goods, or other unspecified 'toxic behaviour', but it looks like they're relying on manually flagged reports by end-users, which is pretty useless for the most part. I mean it's better than nothing, but it's still not good enough AFAIC.

 

I wonder if there's a way to get in touch with Discord to blacklist your domain from student hubs? I'm going to hunt for a contact form and drop them a line.

[mavhc]

Discord contains many inappropriate servers so shouldn't be usable on school infrastructure anyhow

 

True, they should use it at home.

 

In fact, hubs actually link several servers together based on school email addresses, so it's not jsut one student hub server, it could be several, dramatically increasing workload.

 

Only if you suddenly decide it's your job to monitor what children are doing at home

 

It stops it from being a problem linked to school IT systems and instead treat as any other form of cyberbullying/safeguarding breach over social media. It's called foresight.

 

That's the other question, is it your job to protect the school, or the children?

[Garacesh]

That's the other question, is it your job to protect the school, or the children?

Both, obviously.

 

I have sent the following email to Discord, via their support page:

Good morning,

 

I am the network administrator for SchoolName High School in the United Kingdom. It is my understanding that you are working to bring the Student Hubs to the UK.

 

As the servers are tied to school email addresses (which we feel may be misinterpreted as having legitimacy or being 'official'); cannot be controlled or modified by school representatives without the authorisation of the pupil creating the hub; and because Discord allows for both a user to connect to multiple servers and allows adult content, we feel that Student Hubs present a substantial safeguarding concern.

 

We can blacklist emails from discord.com reaching our pupils easily enough but since Discord allows for accounts without verified email addresses, I felt it was prudent to contact you and ask: Would it be possible to blacklist our school domain (SchoolName.LA.sch.uk) from the creation of school hubs?

 

Thank you.

 

I'll drop any response I get into this thread.

[tg12]

The other thing I still can't work out is how this works for those of us not using .sch.uk, .ac.uk or similar. As far as I could tell testing my school email address, it then just prompted me to tell them which school I was at. Would that mean the hub would then be tied to our domain? Or if someone beat us to it, they could easily tie it to something else entirely...

 

Too many details about how this works are unclear, and I am firmly in the camp of this being a safeguarding issue. The mere fact the school's name is on it will put us in hot water should there be incidents on it. Outsiders won't care if it's affiliated with us officially or not.

[Garacesh]

The other thing I still can't work out is how this works for those of us not using .sch.uk, .ac.uk or similar. As far as I could tell testing my school email address, it then just prompted me to tell them which school I was at. Would that mean the hub would then be tied to our domain? Or if someone beat us to it, they could easily tie it to something else entirely...

I too was asked for a school name with a .sch.uk address, I assume it does that to collect info on hubs they haven't created yet?

[localzuk]

What about Trusts that use a single domain across all their schools?

[paulkerton]

wasn't the opposite point the previous objection?

 

No it wasn't. You're being deliberately obtuse. Any server can be added to the school hub. Any.

Well, that's the question, is that crazy? Do we want them to find their school friends, or find random people on the internet who aren't their school friends?

 

This system specifically well let them find random people on the internet who aren't their school friends, because they can add any server they like to the school hub.

[elsiegee40]

 

I can see that everyone (except mavhc) has serious safeguarding concerns about this.

@mavhc unless you have something new and constructive to contribute, rather than just winding up the others as you are at present, I suggest you step back from this thread now.

[paulkerton]

So back on topic...

 

Has anyone else gone to block Discord from their email systems? I have done so, but I know several students decided to use their school account to sign up anyway, so no doubt if they need a password reset in the future they might get upset at the lack of password reset emails appearing!

[DrCheese]

So back on topic...

 

Has anyone else gone to block Discord from their email systems?

 

Not yet, but this was all we could come up with yesterday to stop this, assuming they do need to first verify their school email address as they can add it to an existing Discord account, rather than signing up for a new one.

[jthompson]

We're quarantining them at the moment. I think we'd need more information about how the feature works before we're able to decide otherwise.

[Garacesh]

Discord have finally responded to the email I sent on Thursday

Somewhat insufficiently, I would say.

 

Hello,

 

Thank you for reaching out about this.

 

First, we want to assure you that we take user safety seriously. A Student Hub is a place for students to list their servers so their classmates can more easily find and join them if they choose to do so. We provide server owners with controls such as moderation bots, the ability to block or ban users, limit invite access, and more.

 

Learn more on our Safety Center: https://discord.com/safety.

 

All Discord servers and users must comply with our Terms of Service, Community Guidelines, and our Student Hubs-specific guidelines which you can find here: https://support.discord.com/hc/articles/4407546283031.

 

If we receive reports of behavior that violate our terms we will investigate and take appropriate action.

 

Hubs are not officially affiliated with or managed by schools. We inform users of this in the hub sign-up process and in the hub itself. While we will not be taking down Student Hubs by request, we encourage all users to report any inappropriate behavior they witness so that our Trust and Safety team can investigate.

 

I hope this helps with clarification; please let me know if you have any other questions.

 

Sincerely,

Winnie

 

Last I checked I didn't ask for the sales pitch, Winnie..

 

I've drafted a response but haven't sent it yet:

I'm afraid this does not help much.

 

Self-created, self-moderated student hubs are something completely viable for, say, a university, but I can assure you, self-regulation is not a thing most teenagers are well-versed in. I appreciate that the Ts&Cs for student hubs are stricter, and I also appreciate that discord claims they will have a hand in ensuring servers abide by the Ts&Cs, however it looks like you're going entirely off user-generated reports, and that's not something children usually bother with, either.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that by linking servers to academic email addresses, they are incredibly likely to be seen as having a false legitimacy. Barely anybody ever reads the fine-print during a sign-up process and we all know it. To deny the potential safeguarding risks under the guise of 'people will report bad things' is short-sighted and displays no understanding at all of how children use technology today. Discord has been historically slow to clamp down on platform misuse, such as the organisation of the Capitol riots, and is repeatedly behind the curve to deal with spam and malware spreading on their platform. Put simply, we as a school do not believe Discord constitutes a safe environment for children online.

 

If you are unwilling to deny student hubs to specific domains upon request, a stance which I would implore discord as a company take some time to rethink, can you please provide concise answers to the following questions:

• Can a user access the student hub server list, or join a student hub server, without verifying their academic email address?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub server generate an invite that can be used by users not using that academic email address domain?
  
• What kind of checks are put in place after the initial setup to ensure that users are still active on that domain? What about pupils who have advanced beyond the establishment, been excluded, transferred, or otherwise left the school?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub enable 18+ features of Discord, such as opting in to view NSFW channels?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub join non-student hub servers (where 18+ material is acceptable as per discord's main Ts&Cs), or can a user that is part of non-student hub servers also join a student hub server?
  
• To what degree are Discord able or willing to work with schools, the police, CEOP etc when* offensive material is reported to the school?
  

* I say when because it will be. Pupils eventually end up reporting to the school when incidents occur over services that aren't in any way tied to us (Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, TikTok etc) once the bullying/etc finally gets too much. To tie a discord server to a school email address absolutely will create a false legitimacy, regardless of what discord prompt the user with during sign-up.

 

I haven't actually sent it yet, as I feel like I'm being a bit too confrontational.

 

Any thoughts?

[elsiegee40]

I really like your reply

[DrCheese]

as I feel like I'm being a bit too confrontational.

 

You're not, everything you've wrote is true. But I suspect they'll quietly ignore your feedback unless they pass it upwards.

[mavhc]

I'll give you their answers

 

> Can a user access the student hub server list, or join a student hub server, without verifying their academic email address?

 

Part 1: no. Part 2: no such thing.

 

> Can a user that is part of a student hub server generate an invite that can be used by users not using that academic email address domain?

 

There's no such thing as a student hub server.

 

> What kind of checks are put in place after the initial setup to ensure that users are still active on that domain? What about pupils who have advanced beyond the establishment, been excluded, transferred, or otherwise left the school?

 

We forgot about that, maybe we'll ask them again in September, oh, you say not all countries start school in September? We didn't realise.

 

> Can a user that is part of a student hub enable 18+ features of Discord, such as opting in to view NSFW channels?

 

Yes, because we have no record of what age groups go to what school.

 

> Can a user that is part of a student hub join non-student hub servers (where 18+ material is acceptable as per discord's main Ts&Cs), or can a user that is part of non-student hub servers also join a student hub server?

 

Part 1: Of course, joining a student hub just gives you a list of some servers. Part 2: There's no such thing as student hub server.

 

> To what degree are Discord able or willing to work with schools, the police, CEOP etc when* offensive material is reported to the school?

 

We comply with all laws in the countries we operate.

[jthompson]

I recommend removing the word 'much' from your opening line. I'd also not throw any shade RE the Capitol riot, and perhaps use TikTok's current problems with teacher abuse as an example of why schools are going to be wanting more reassurances and agency than are currently being provided.

[Garacesh]

I recommend removing the word 'much' from your opening line. I'd also not throw any shade RE the Capitol riot, and perhaps use TikTok's current problems with teacher abuse as an example of why schools are going to be wanting more reassurances and agency than are currently being provided.

 

Re: tiktok, could you provide a bit more info about that?

I'll be the first to admit I'm reasonably un-versed with the platform. Is this the thing about slapping teacher's bums?

 

Fair point about the capitol riots, perhaps I should be mentioning the multitude of CSE cases that have used discord to groom children instead..

 

Edit: Email draft #2. Some light rewording, plus major changes highlighted in blue.

I'm afraid this does not help much.

 

I'd agree that self-created, self-moderated student hubs are something completely viable for, say, a university class full of young adults, but I can assure you, self-regulation is not a thing most teenagers are well-versed in. I appreciate that the Ts&Cs for student hubs are stricter, and I also appreciate that discord claims they will have a hand in ensuring servers abide by the Ts&Cs, however it looks like you're going entirely off user-generated reports, which we know from experience that that's not something children usually bother with, usually either because they don't know how or because they are afraid of retaliation for 'being a grass', regardless of how anonymously reporting is handled.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that by linking servers to academic email addresses, they are incredibly likely to be seen as having a false legitimacy. Barely anybody ever reads the fine-print during a sign-up process and we all know it. To deny the potential safeguarding risks under the guise of 'children will report bad things' is short-sighted and displays no understanding at all of how children use technology today. Discord has historically been slow to clamp down on platform misuse, and is repeatedly behind the curve to deal with spam and malware spreading on their platform, not to speak of the many instances of predators using Discord to facilitate CSE. In its reliance solely on user-generated reports, and its acceptance of NSFW content, it is, quite simply, not a safe platform for children.

 

If you are unwilling to deny student hubs to specific domains upon request, a stance which I would implore discord as a company take some time to rethink, can you please provide concise answers to the following questions:

• Users can exist on Discord without verifying an email address. Can a user access the student hub server list, or join a student hub server by providing but not verifying their academic email address?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub server generate an invite that can be used by users not using that academic email address domain?
  
• What kind of checks are put in place after the initial setup to ensure that users are still active on that domain? What about pupils who have advanced beyond the establishment, been excluded, transferred, or otherwise left the school?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub server enable 18+ features of Discord, such as opting in to view NSFW channels? Can NSFW channels be created on student hub servers?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub server join non-student hub servers where 18+ material is acceptable as per discord's main Ts&Cs, or can a user that is part of non-student hub servers also join a student hub server?
  
• To what degree are Discord able or willing to work with schools, the police, CEOP etc when* offensive material is reported to the school?
  

* I say when because it will be. Pupils eventually end up reporting to the school when incidents occur over services that aren't in any way tied to us (Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, TikTok etc) once the bullying/etc finally gets too much. To tie a discord server to a school email address absolutely will create a false legitimacy, regardless of what discord prompts the user with during sign-up, which will further this effect. To promote spaces to children on an unsuitable platform with a tangential connection to the school (however much it is implied otherwise) without the school's approval, consent, or ability to opt-out is, to be frank, incredibly irresponsible.

 

I have been liaising with other schools within the UK who also share my concerns.

 

Thank you.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Garacesh
Added second draft

[TechMonkey]

Re: tiktok, could you provide a bit more info about that?

I'll be the first to admit I'm reasonably un-versed with the platform. Is this the thing about slapping teacher's bums?

 

Fair point about the capitol riots, perhaps I should be mentioning the multitude of CSE cases that have used discord to groom children instead..

 

Edit: Email draft #2. Changes highlighted in blue.

 

BBC had an article about it. Basically the age old issue of kids posting things either with the teacher videoed or about the teacher.

Maybe thank them for their response first, but mention that you don't feel that addresses your concerns?

 

How about adding something along the lines of "and we look forward to working with you and helping you address these issues"? Adds a friendly atmosphere.

[Garacesh]

Final copy of the reply I'm sending

New bits in blue, as before.

Thank you for your response, but I'm afraid this does not help much.

 

I'd agree that self-created, self-moderated student hubs are something completely viable for, say, a university class full of young adults, but I can assure you, self-regulation is not a thing most teenagers are well-versed in. I appreciate that the Ts&Cs for student hubs are stricter, and I also appreciate that discord claims they will have a hand in ensuring servers abide by the Ts&Cs, however it looks like you're going entirely off user-generated reports, which we know from experience that that's not something children usually bother with either, usually either because they don't know how or because they are afraid of retaliation for 'being a grass', regardless of how anonymously reporting is handled.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that by linking servers to academic email addresses, they are incredibly likely to be seen as having a false legitimacy. Barely anybody ever reads the fine-print during a sign-up process and we all know it. To deny the potential safeguarding risks under the guise of 'children will report bad things' is short-sighted and displays no understanding at all of how children use technology today. Social media is repeatedly being weaponisedin order to harass others, such as recent TikTok trends, and Discord has historically been slow to clamp down on platform misuse. Discord is repeatedly behind the curve to deal with spam and malware spreading on their platform,not to speak of the many instances of predators using Discord to facilitate CSE. In its reliance solely on user-generated reports, and its acceptance of NSFW content, it is, quite simply, not a safe platform for children.

 

If you are unwilling to deny student hubs to specific domains upon request, a stance which I would implore discord as a company take some time to rethink, can you please provide concise answers to the following questions:

• Users can exist on Discord without verifying an email address. Can a user access the student hub server list, or join a student hub server by providing verifying an academic email address?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub server generate an invite that can be used by users not using that academic email address domain?
  
• What kind of checks are put in place after the initial setup to ensure that users are still active on that domain? What about pupils who have advanced beyond the establishment, been excluded, transferred, or otherwise left the school?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub server enable 18+ features of Discord, such as opting in to view NSFW channels? Can NSFW channels be created on student hub servers?
  
• Can a user that is part of a student hub join non-student hub servers (where 18+ material is acceptable as per discord's main Ts&Cs), or can a user that is part of non-student hub servers also join a student hub server?
  
• To what degree are Discord able or willing to work with schools, the police, CEOP etc when* offensive material is reported to the school?
  
• If offensive material is reported directly to Discord as per student hub Ts&Cs, to what degree will they make the school aware of the incident(s)?
  

* I say when because it will be. Pupils eventually end up reporting to the school when incidents occur over services that aren't in any way tied to us (Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, TikTok etc) once the bullying/etc finally gets too much. To tie a discord server to a school email address absolutely will create a false legitimacy, regardless of what discord prompts the user with during sign-up, which will further this effect. To promote spaces to children on an unsuitable platform with a tangential connection to the school (however muchit is implied otherwise) without the school's approval, consent, or ability to opt-out is, to be frank, incredibly irresponsible.

 

I have been liaising with other schools within the UK who also share my concerns. Despite our current objections, we are willing to discuss this further and helping with addressing these issues.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Garacesh]

As promised, Discord's response:

 

Hello,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you and thank you for your thoughtful response. We appreciate you engaging with us about this and we want to assure you that we take user safety seriously.

 

Below, we've provided answers to the questions you've raised in your previous request:

Users can exist on Discord without verifying an email address. Can a user access the student hub server list, or join a student hub server by providing but not verifying an academic email address?

No, users need to verify the email address to gain access to the hub.

 

Can a user that is part of a student hub server generate an invite that can be used by users not using that academic email address domain?

No, invites to the hub will lead to the same email verification gate.

 

What kind of checks are put in place after the initial setup to ensure that users are still active on that domain? What about pupils who have advanced beyond the establishment, been excluded, transferred, or otherwise left the school?

Given that Student Hubs have only been available for a few months we do not yet have a need for these checks. However, we are evaluating the checks that could be put in place to address issues—such as students who have graduated or left the institution—once Hubs have been available for a longer period of time.

 

Can a user that is part of a student hub server enable 18+ features of Discord, such as opting in to view NSFW channels? Can NSFW channels be created on student hub servers?

Graphic violence and sexual content is not allowed in Student Hubs. Servers linked to Student Hubs should be appropriate for audiences of all ages 13+. Our Trust and Safety team will take action on content that violates this term.

 

Additionally, Discord's Terms of Service require people to be over a minimum age to access our app or website, so we require users to confirm their age to satisfy that minimum age requirement. We use this information in accordance with our Privacy Policy and to keep our users safe and ensure they don't encounter material that's not appropriate for them.

 

For example, if a user is between the ages of 13 and 17, we use that age information to figure out whether they are able to join servers or channels that contain age-restricted content (age-restricted content is only accessible to users over 18).

 

In the case that a user is reported for engaging in inappropriate behavior or interacting with inappropriate content and is between the ages 13 and 17, then our Trust & Safety team will investigate and take appropriate action against that user.

 

Can a user that is part of a student hub join non-student hub servers (where 18+ material is acceptable as per discord's main Ts&Cs), or can a user that is part of non-student hub servers also join a student hub server?

Student Hub members can join servers outside of the Student Hub.

 

Student server admins are in control of who they invite to their individual servers. This could include non-Hub users. They have all the usual server admin tools that allow them to customize their communities and limit invite access. You can learn more about these tools on our Safety Center: https://discord.com/safety. We make it clear in the hub sign-up process and hub itself that servers may have members from outside their school.

 

To what degree are Discord able or willing to work with schools, the police, CEOP etc when* offensive material is reported to the school? If offensive material is reported directly to Discord as per student hub Ts&Cs, to what degree will they make the school aware of the incident(s)?

If Trust & Safety confirms a violation, the team takes immediate steps to mitigate the harm. The following are actions that we might take on either users and/or servers:

• Removing the content
  
• Warning users to educate them about their violation
  
• Temporarily banning for a fixed amount of time as a “cool-down” period
  
• Permanently banning users from Discord and making it difficult for them to create another account
  
• Removing a server from Discord
  
• Disabling a server’s ability to invite new users
  

 

For the sake of user privacy, we are unable to provide personal information about users on Discord to individuals, such as school administrators, who might seek that information. In certain cases, we may be able to disclose information which we would not normally provide given valid legal process from law enforcement. You can learn more about our work with law enforcement here: https://discord.com/safety/360044157931-Working-with-law-enforcement

 

Additionally, Discord proactively works with law enforcement agencies in cases of immediate danger and/or self-harm. In particular, we swiftly report child abuse material content and the users responsible to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

 

If you have any other questions, please let us know here at any time.

 

Again, we genuinely appreciate your engagement with us on this.

 

Sincerely,

Winnie

 

So essentially, yep, the official line is "We're doing this without you, suck it up, buttercup!"

Edited December 13, 2021 by Garacesh