Trying to go 100% cloud based but LA have said we need to keep FMS & SQL onsite :-(

[TwistedHelixis]

We are in the process of going 100% cloud based.

 

Recently we purchased Arbor but our LA have informed us we will need to keep using FMS as they require the files in a specific format.

 

This could end up costing us a fortune. We will need to keep Capita suport and licensing, we might need a new server and licensing to replace our old server, and we cant go 100% cloud based.

 

Are there any schools that can choose which finance package they have, or are all schools forced to use one package?

[paulkerton]

Are you an LA School or an Academy/Free School?

As far as I'm aware, your LA do not have right to mandate what tools you use in either circumstance.

I would turn around to the LA and say if they require you to use something, they can assume the costs of that mandated product.

[Katy]

If you have to continue using it, might work out cheaper to stick it on a VM in Azure than having to buy new hardware. We run a few VMs in Azure (with VPN back to our firewall) to minimise the local server load.

[DGardiner]

We are in the process of going 100% cloud based.

 

Recently we purchased Arbor but our LA have informed us we will need to keep using FMS as they require the files in a specific format.

 

This could end up costing us a fortune. We will need to keep Capita suport and licensing, we might need a new server and licensing to replace our old server, and we cant go 100% cloud based.

 

Are there any schools that can choose which finance package they have, or are all schools forced to use one package?

 

Your head needs to get on the phone.

 

Academies can do as they wish.

 

If your an authority school its gonna need to head to argue with them, i doubt your the first - Probably the LA trying to safeguard their contracts just like when they dispatch the safeguarding hit quads if you threaten to change internet provider.

[TechMonkey]

What is the format? Speak to alternative finance providers and see if they can provide this format. My understanding from the past was that the LA could advise what package and many schools took that advice as it made things easier, but it wasn't a mandate.

 

Katy's idea is feasible, though I have heard some horror stories of SQL servers in the cloud racking up costs. Alternatively do the reverse, keep the SQL server onsite but VPN it out to your cloud.

 

I would first push back and find out where they mandate what software package you can use. It may be an misunderstanding on either side. They may have taken that as the majority of schools take their advice it is 'must have'. It may be you buy services from the LA that will only work with FMS so they are saying you have to stay with that to make it work.

[TwistedHelixis]

Are you an LA School or an Academy/Free School?

LA

 

Thanks for all the advice, I will pass this info back to the school

[mavhc]

Nottinghamshire says we can use whatever finance system we want, but we have to prove it'll work with their backend. FMS being the only approved system currently. Working on getting that changed.

[dhicks]

we might need a new server and licensing to replace our old server, and we cant go 100% cloud based.

 

Depends on what, exactly, you mean by "cloud based" - you don't have to use an AWS / Azure style charged-by-the-CPU-cycle setup, you can just rent a plain server, basically like having a server in your on-site server rack but someone else takes care of sorting out power, storage and so on for you. OVH's Windows server start at around £8 per month, although you'd probably need something with a bit more RAM and you'd probably want to pay the extra for regular backup snapshots.

[TwistedHelixis]

Depends on what, exactly, you mean by "cloud based"

We are Google based school. Last thing I wanted was to need a server even if that is in the cloud.

 

Almost everything else apart from SIMS & FMS is now cloud based.

[dhicks]

We are Google based school. Last thing I wanted was to need a server even if that is in the cloud.

 

Ah, good point. You could run FMS on a remote server, accessed via a remote desktop session presented in the web browser so as far as the average end user is concerned it's "cloud based", but it'd still be you maintaining that server (and the remote desktop / web access / authentication mechanism). If, as others have suggested, the issue is simply being able to get data out of your preferred system (Arbor) and into FMS then SalamanderSoft might be the people to ask about a data conversion script of some kind.

[jmak]

You cannot be compelled to use a specific piece of software. It is mandatory to provide reports to the LA in a particular format if you are a maintained school:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/consistent-financial-reporting-framework-cfr

 

If you get support from the LA finance team, they may only work with a particular software, but you're not obliged to buy support from them. A lot of LAs prefer Capita FMS, because they've used it for years. All of the cloud MIS providers have a financial management module that produce reports in the required format. It'd be worth a conversation with the LA and possibly some local schools too find out what they do. Presumably the LA would like you to keep buying their financial support services and a lot of schools are moving away from SIMS/FMS, so it's in their interest to be a bit more open minded.

[Ditto]

I guess the first thing to say is congratulation on moving to a modern MIS. Doing so in an LA is often harder than within an academy. I guess one lesson for others is when moving MIS, consider all aspects of the project - but hindsight is a wonderful thing of course . Several suggestions in the thread already, but Arbor are approachable and I'd ask them how other of their schools manage in this scenario - a reference school would be nice to have.

[TwistedHelixis]

reference school would be nice to have.

 

Yes this would be really helpful. All LA's need to send the same format to central government, and I image there are other schools not using FMS, so it must be possible for our LA to do the same.

 

I'll give Arbor a call

[dmason2]

could finance software not be changed to a cloud service too?, there's a few out there; PSF have a fully cloud based option

[TwistedHelixis]

Question - Are there any LA maintained schools that do not use FMS for their finance software, if so can you please post back and let me know, just a yes we dont use FMS, is all i need at this stage.

 

Thanks

[DavR]

Our whole local authority doesn't use SIMS FMS..... but that's because we're tied in to RM Finance instead.

 

Currently in the process of migrating away from that to a new product, but again, this has been LA-led, not a school decision.

[TwistedHelixis]

Our whole local authority doesn't use SIMS FMS..... but that's because we're tied in to RM Finance instead.Currently in the process of migrating away from that to a new product, but again, this has been LA-led, not a school decision.

 

Being forced to use FMS because the LA use it will cost us many thousands. We will not be able to become a serverless school with all the other benifits that would have encompassed. We will also be forced to purchase MS software and licences, this can't be right.

 

This looks like a win win for Capita and Microsoft then.

[TwistedHelixis]

On the Governments website it only seems to mention the data being sent to them needing to be in a specific format, but they also supply a generator tool as a download so the local authorities can do this easily. I can't find any mention of the schools being asked to use the same software as the LA or even needing to send the LA data in a specific format.

 

We are more than happy to supply the LA the data in a format they need but they don't want us to do this. The most I have got in this direction is that any software we did choose would need to be looked at by the LA audit department, would need to output the data in a complicated format, and would need to be able to have automated data flows between the main council systems and the school and vice versa, which is basically saying no chance of using anything else. They will not even supply us with information on the complicated format.

 

Problem is, the LA has chossen all of these requirments to suit there own needs based on us using the software they pick.

 

So can the LA create their own requirements that have not come from the government and get the schools to use these, even if a schools does not want to use any of the LA services on offer anymore?

 

So either,

The LA are using this as a way to make money from the schools by forcing them to use software they no longer want and then charging for support / licensing.

 

The LA don't see this as an issue and are just doing what they have always done, just assuming it's this way because it's always been like this.

 

The LA are making life easier for themselves at the expense of the schools.

 

The LA can dictate what software a school uses as it's finance system. (even if they say you can pick any software, there is no way any other software could meet their requirements) EDIT - They might as well say, feel free to use any software provided it has the letters F M & S in it's name.

Edited April 28, 2021 by TwistedHelixis

[bobsmith]

The whole point of "Consistent Financial Reporting" is to make sure school finance data is reported in the same way.

 

However it is not tied to any particular piece of software. At our school we've picked the finance packages we like, the LA has no say on it - provided we can provide CFR compliant data - which is very easy.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/consistent-financial-reporting-framework-cfr

 

LA's often live in their own little bubble of reality - but they have no standing to compel this kind of stuff in general.

[jmak]

I think the person you're talking to at the LA doesn't understand the "very complicated format". From a computing point of view it's a "very simple format". If you open the file on the government website, it's a single row for each school which has a column for each spending allocation code. As long as whatever system you use outputs in the correct columns, it's straightforward to produce.

 

Our school financial advisor used to have access to our instance of SIMS FMS to help prepare the figures and assist with monitoring. That was entirely separate from end of year submission. The file that was submitted was an XML generated by SIMS in the consistent financial reporting format. I don't think they'd know whether it was produced by SIMS or something else.

[bobsmith]

I think the person you're talking to at the LA doesn't understand the "very complicated format". From a computing point of view it's a "very simple format". If you open the file on the government website, it's a single row for each school which has a column for each spending allocation code. As long as whatever system you use outputs in the correct columns, it's straightforward to produce.

 

Our school financial advisor used to have access to our instance of SIMS FMS to help prepare the figures and assist with monitoring. That was entirely separate from end of year submission. The file that was submitted was an XML generated by SIMS in the consistent financial reporting format. I don't think they'd know whether it was produced by SIMS or something else.

 

it's a lot like CTF - it's a standard format and provided you can export them then any MIS works with the government stuff.