Mixed-vendor printing systems

[enjay]

I'm being asked questions about changing printer/MFD supplier, as there are concerns we're a cornered customer once we have bought in to the lease and click charges, and the supplier could charge us whatever they want after that and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it. If my current supplier is reading this, I'm not saying we suspect they are actually doing this, however due diligence has prompted the question from On High.

 

Every school I know of has a single supplier for managed print, including click charges, equipment maintenance and the Papercut etc. software behind it all, but I'm unclear on why that actually is. What are the reasons against going multi-vendor, i.e. buying the best value hardware and service each time we buy a new machine? This would also give us greater choice on device type. Okay, we'd have multiple suppliers so multiple invoices each month/quarter and possible confusion over which company to call for which device, but those a soluble problems.

[msi_school]

I have used multiple vendors for printing but not with a pull provision like papercut.

 

There were no show stopping issues but it did make it more complex because I had two managed service providers, one company that sold us copiers but charged for service and printers we purchased directly without support. This is no more complex than all the other kit and suppliers I had to deal with but I am happy that I can now just call one company about printers and make it their problem.

 

I think you will have problems getting a Papercut supplier to run the MFD version on someone else's copiers but I believe you can use seperate release stations.

 

The big thing to avoid with any service contract like printers is to get all the products and services in one contract, if you add things over the years you end up with multiple contracts that all end at different times and then it is difficult to change provision or provider.

[enjay]

I think you will have problems getting a Papercut supplier to run the MFD version on someone else's copiers but I believe you can use seperate release stations.

 

Possibly, but they should each install on their own machines, and we could manage Papercut ourselves.

 

The big thing to avoid with any service contract like printers is to get all the products and services in one contract, if you add things over the years you end up with multiple contracts that all end at different times and then it is difficult to change provision or provider.

 

Yes, we have that problem too! Most of our MFDs were bought outright, as the previous Business Manager hated leases. I persuaded the current Business Manager to start leasing for cashflow reasons so we could upgrade more machines. Possibly starting to regret that now...

[DGardiner]

Getting papercut yourself will save you money, Print providers have a habbit of "keeping" the licence so you have to buy papercut every renewal if you switch.

 

Our most recent supplier got papercut in our name and released it to us so its ours to keep so on renewal regardless of where we go its just a maintenance fee with papercut...

 

 

Id imagine the benefit of 1stop regarding the machines is being able to avoid the finger pointing, papercut is one thing but i couldnt be arsed dealing with fingerpointing with the machines/service providers.

[andy_b]

We purchase the MFD outright from Konica (found no one else can touch them on pricing) and then pay per click for toner, servicing etc.

 

We use a third party to supply Papercut as Konica was a lot more expensive.

 

Never had any problems (might help we own the MFD's) .

[localzuk]

I'm being asked questions about changing printer/MFD supplier, as there are concerns we're a cornered customer once we have bought in to the lease and click charges, and the supplier could charge us whatever they want after that and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it. If my current supplier is reading this, I'm not saying we suspect they are actually doing this, however due diligence has prompted the question from On High.

 

If you buy using one of the various framework agreements, then this isn't a thing. Eg. We bought our copies under the CPC framework agreement. Costs are fixed for the length of our contract and cannot be increased - that's the whole point of the contract. If you are buying copiers off-framework and are in education, you're doing it wrong.

Every school I know of has a single supplier for managed print, including click charges, equipment maintenance and the Papercut etc. software behind it all, but I'm unclear on why that actually is. What are the reasons against going multi-vendor, i.e. buying the best value hardware and service each time we buy a new machine? This would also give us greater choice on device type. Okay, we'd have multiple suppliers so multiple invoices each month/quarter and possible confusion over which company to call for which device, but those a soluble problems.

 

Simply put - the frameworks do all the work for you in the first place. Ensuring you've got a contract that complies with procurement laws, and has a good set of terms for you as a customer. There's no hidden charges etc...

 

Why is it you think your copier company can randomly change the terms of their contract? I've only come across this once before, with an off-framework contract.

 

However, regarding something like papercut - yes, this should be done off-contract. It isn't a part of the copiers, it is software you run on your server. We've not bought it through our contract for a LONG time.

[msi_school]

 

However, regarding something like papercut - yes, this should be done off-contract. It isn't a part of the copiers, it is software you run on your server. We've not bought it through our contract for a LONG time.

 

Do you run a separate release station or are you using the embedded solution, I assumed having never been through the purchase process that the leasing company would not be eager to let you install the software on their devices.

[enjay]

Why is it you think your copier company can randomly change the terms of their contract? I've only come across this once before, with an off-framework contract.

 

They can't randomly change the terms, and they aren't. What they could do, however, is charge a lot more for the next copier we approach them for, confident we can't easily move because different copiers are on under different agreements, and some are either recent outright purchases or still under active leases meaning there would be cost implications to moving supplier.

 

As I said earlier, I don't actually think they are fleecing us, but I have been asked to look into our position. Some of this comes because when we retired an old machine recently, I bought new-for-old from our current supplier and the lack of 3 quotes raised a flag with our Governors/auditors.

[localzuk]

Do you run a separate release station or are you using the embedded solution, I assumed having never been through the purchase process that the leasing company would not be eager to let you install the software on their devices.

We run it embedded. Never had an issue getting them to change the couple of settings needed (or, in reality, they just give me the codes I need to make the changes), then everything else is a user app on Ricoh machines. It'd be like not letting you install software on a leased PC.

[localzuk]

They can't randomly change the terms, and they aren't. What they could do, however, is charge a lot more for the next copier we approach them for, confident we can't easily move because different copiers are on under different agreements, and some are either recent outright purchases or still under active leases meaning there would be cost implications to moving supplier.

 

Ah, we've never bought a copier outside of our 3 yearly lease renewals. If we think we may need a different setup next time round, we just note it and live with what we have until then.

As I said earlier, I don't actually think they are fleecing us, but I have been asked to look into our position. Some of this comes because when we retired an old machine recently, I bought new-for-old from our current supplier and the lack of 3 quotes raised a flag with our Governors/auditors.

We don't buy any machines at all. All of it is just leased. And as it is all on framework, the price is fixed. So even if we did want another machine, the new price would be the same as the old, as the framework agreement hasn't changed.

[enjay]

They can't randomly change the terms, and they aren't. What they could do, however, is charge a lot more for the next copier we approach them for, confident we can't easily move because different copiers are on under different agreements, and some are either recent outright purchases or still under active leases meaning there would be cost implications to moving supplier.

 

As I said earlier, I don't actually think they are fleecing us, but I have been asked to look into our position. Some of this comes because when we retired an old machine recently, I bought new-for-old from our current supplier and the lack of 3 quotes raised a flag with our Governors/auditors.

 

The other area of concern is the reduced choice. Our supplier sells one brand of MFD, so our choice for new hardware is limited, and other manufacturers' comparable models may be cheaper. Hence my question about the risks/benefits of multi-vendor.

[enjay]

We don't buy any machines at all. All of it is just leased. And as it is all on framework, the price is fixed. So even if we did want another machine, the new price would be the same as the old, as the framework agreement hasn't changed.

 

And when the agreement on the initial block of machines has run out but you still have time remaining on the agreement(s) for the addition(s)? What is stopping the supplier increasing the click-charge of all the original machines, knowing you can't leave unless you buy out of the remaining leases?

 

Maybe I just need to get a new single agreement from our supplier, covering all our machines for the next 3 years (or providing replacements for any which won't last another 3 years). That would address at least some of the concerns raised.

[localzuk]

There's no risks - its just a printer. It comes down to what you want from your MFD fleet. We want consistency, ease of management, and simple invoicing. If those things are less important to you, there's no reason to stick to a single supplier. But, you do lose some economies of scale - if you're buying 15 copiers, you're gonna get better pricing than buying 1.

[TechMonkey]

Shouldn't make any difference. We had a Riso machine on our Papercut that was supplied by Sharp. The contracts shouldn't interfere with each other, you just end up calling different people for different the different machines. I would probably advise getting the contracts lined up. Before I came I think they had a real mish mash of contracts and Sharp helped consolidate them. Cost a pretty penny but that was due to them financing buying out some of the previous contracts.

 

My confusion is why this would be any different from your PCs? You buy what you need from where you need it, just because it is on lease shouldn't affect anything else. Papercut can handle all sorts of copiers, it is down to supplier to put the embedded software on and then you just run the setup in Papercut. Your fear about prices shooting up when the contract runs out is slightly valid but you either ensure you renew the contract, don't use that company again when it comes to renew or get them to remove it and put a different copier in.

[msi_school]

We run it embedded. Never had an issue getting them to change the couple of settings needed (or, in reality, they just give me the codes I need to make the changes), then everything else is a user app on Ricoh machines. It'd be like not letting you install software on a leased PC.

 

Fair enough, I was thinking of them as black boxes rather than as PCs that print.

[enjay]

My confusion is why this would be any different from your PCs? You buy what you need from where you need it, just because it is on lease shouldn't affect anything else.

 

Here's where it differs from PCs. Has a PC supplier ever said any of the following things to you?

1 - "sorry, I can't quote you for HP computers because you already have some HP you bought from someone else"

2 - "we can give you a lease for 50 new PCs, but you'll need to buy out of your existing leases"

3 - "we would advise against buying HP because you've already got some Dell"

 

I was recently told all 3 of these by some MFD suppliers I approached.

 

I guess I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why we typically get everything print from one supplier - when, as you say, we shop around for PCs all the time - and how best to manage an ageing fleet (which was purchased in a somewhat ad hoc way) with a small budget. I don't want to replace all my machines nor do I particularly want to re-up them all for another 3 years either, but I would like a few new ones.

 

So, if the only issue I'm likely to face is not knowing which supplier to phone (solved with a sticker on the machine!) and needing to manage Papercut myself, I'm tempted to shop around a bit.

[k-strider]

we too normally buy via a framework but we only have 5 photocopiers - we use Crown Comercial Services framework

https://www.crowncommercial.gov.uk/agreements/rm3781

[DavidYoung]

If you are buying copiers off-framework and are in education, you're doing it wrong.

 

So agree with this. There are too many horror stories to risk it and, particularly with leasing, you know it is all correctly tendered and approved.

 

The framework pricing does change but it is minimal and goes down as well as up. There are particular machines that have much better framework pricing compared to others, I know with Ricoh, the 55ppm colour machines are cheaper than even smaller mono ones because it was chosen to be the 'standard' machine on the framework that would fit most environments.

 

We also get PaperCut from Ricoh but it is just a licence and we actually do the installation ourselves. If we wanted to licence other manufacturers then we can easily add that on either via Ricoh or the other supplier.