[sims] Capita is trying to sell off non-core businesses (SIMS is for sale)

[CAM]

A company like Google could even find a way to do what the DFE has failed to do and provide a proper way of transferring data from Primary to Secondary in a simple way without resorting to the error-prone mess of CTFs. Unfortunately they tend to abandon projects as well at the drop of a hat which would spell disaster. The DFE themselves buying the product would also be interesting but brings up a major conflict of interest in competition with other suppliers.

[bringmoredata]

Thanks Ditto - I appreciate you sharing this (and I really need to change my edugeek handle to bringmoredata now I've left Assembly!).

 

I'm intrigued to see how SIMS Support Units will react in particular. I'm not yet sure if they'll be worried by the news (uncertainty in SIMS HQ) or see it as a positive development (new management should come with a new strategy). Anyone have any views?

[synaesthesia]

 

Clearly Corporate Capita are only capable of Corporate vandalism, milking a good business of their own, that is their business model, and now need to Sell ESS to cover up failings elsewhere. Now they can concentrate on consulting on other peoples businesses.... Could it be worse? At least as a Government outsourcer Capita were sensitive to the influence of Government and DFE , would Google , Pearson or a venture/vulture capitalist? what will an open market do to vendor pricing ?

!

 

Only just noticed you dropped the P bomb in there. Are you aware of just how well loved Pearson is in the educational IT community? We'd rather sell our souls to Capita!

[MrMat]

Thanks Ditto - I appreciate you sharing this (and I really need to change my edugeek handle to bringmoredata now I've left Assembly!).

 

I'm intrigued to see how SIMS Support Units will react in particular. I'm not yet sure if they'll be worried by the news (uncertainty in SIMS HQ) or see it as a positive development (new management should come with a new strategy). Anyone have any views?

 

LA support tech dude here. I'm in two minds honestly.

 

We support SIMS, and this news isn't going to convince Schools to hold onto SIMS 7 for much longer. Many are already looking to jump ship and this may well be the push they need.

 

The expectation of SIMS Primary has kept some onboard; 'lets wait and see if new SIMS is any good'. But with it still only being half a product (even though it's had the longest dev time in the history of space and time) plus this news, probably means it's not going to be a valid option any time soon.

 

On the flip side, if there is a mass exodus of SIMS, most other suppliers won't be able to cope with support demands so I'm sure there'll be some scope for ongoing support etc.

 

It's a strange one! I think we're in for a bumpy ride either way

Edited June 22, 2020 by MrMat

[Michael]

I'd have to agree with the above - you're essentially talking about 21,000 odd SQL databases, training and managing the remaining third parties still required. It's definitely not a small task, but then lets be realistic, schools are going to make decisions at different times/different years.

 

I can only speculate whether any of the competition have even contemplated having many thousands of schools to support with MIS issues, on an on-going basis.

[Primus]

Not anymore. There seems to be a grudging acknowledgement that SIMS has a Live SAAS product, and this may be of material interest to a potential buyer or its future. Regardless of the "opinion" and educated guesses at its viability , the thread is now better informed, slightly more balanced , though none the less opinionated.

 

hope I have quoted this right ... struggling with the 1980's PHP bulletin board style

 

What's your job title at Capita?

[LukeRowberry]

Surely if they worked at Capita they would be used to 1980's design?

[Norphy]

What's your job title at Capita?

 

"Chief Apologist" by the looks of it.

 

also, phpBB is 80s design? The first release of phpBB was in the year 2000. PHP itself was only released in 1995. I'm no fan of either but come on!

[paulkerton]

Not anymore. There seems to be a grudging acknowledgement that SIMS has a Live SAAS product

It's been nearly 2 and a half years since an announced product, and yet it's still not ready and is still in testing.

I mean, theres a reason SIMS hasn't been to the last 2 BETT shows - because there isn't anything to show and they know the reception when bringing the same product 3 years in a row without it actually being available to paying customers would be cool at best.

It's launched like Virgin Orbit. A few tests have been fired off, they haven't gone well and they're years behind schedule... But it is kinda pretty.

 

I think you also underestimate a level of good will that competitior products will get compared to SIMS. People will expect the functionality that SIMS .net / SIMS 7 has in SIMS 8, because it's the next generation of a product. Competitors like Bromcom, Arbor, PupilAsset and ScholarPack will get extra goodwill if certain features are missing because people understand they're an upstart compared.

Useful insight from an Edugeeker Bring more data: What Capita's proposed sale of SIMS means for the UK MIS market

Thank you for this, been waiting for his analysis. It's always insightful.

Edited June 22, 2020 by paulkerton

[crAss-teacher]

"Chief Apologist" by the looks of it.!

 

 

I don't have a role at Capita

I expect that their contracts forbid them from defending themselves here.

 

I don't think I am or appreciate being labelled an apologist (or wouldn't remain so for long ! )

 

Clearly Corporate Capita are only capable of Corporate vandalism, milking a good business of their own, that is their business model, and now need to Sell ESS to cover up failings elsewhere. Now they can concentrate on consulting on other peoples businesses....

 

I do however know people who used to work for SIMS a thankless task being mis-managed , but on the whole (because there will be exceptions) people who worked there were quite dedicated to bettering education software in the UK , more so than filling the pockets of Capita shareholders. They probably share your frustrations !

 

Thank you for the PHP history lesson , most useful !

[paulkerton]

I do however know people who used to work for SIMS a thankless task being mis-managed , but on the whole (because there will be exceptions) people who worked there were quite dedicated to bettering education software in the UK , more so than filling the pockets of Capita shareholders. They probably share your frustrations !

 

No one is questioning the individuals.

However, SIMS .net came out in 2004 I believe, and many parts of it (Nova-T) for example are even older. To say that development has stalled would be an understatement. Clearly, a decision was made at some point in the last 16 years that keeping their head above water would be more beneficial than development work.

[DrCheese]

I don't have a role at Capita

 

I don't think I am or appreciate being labelled an apologist (or wouldn't remain so for long ! )

 

 

I do however know people who used to work for SIMS a thankless task being mis-managed , but on the whole (because there will be exceptions) people who worked there were quite dedicated to bettering education software in the UK , more so than filling the pockets of Capita shareholders. They probably share your frustrations !

 

Thank you for the PHP history lesson , most useful !

 

Are you sure you don't work at capita or have a vested interest? You've got 3 posts on this forum, all in this topic. Defending Capita...

[Ditto]

Thanks Ditto - I appreciate you sharing this (and I really need to change my edugeek handle to bringmoredata now I've left Assembly!).

 

I'm intrigued to see how SIMS Support Units will react in particular. I'm not yet sure if they'll be worried by the news (uncertainty in SIMS HQ) or see it as a positive development (new management should come with a new strategy). Anyone have any views?

There's so much that will be of interest to watch as this proceeds. I think any MIS support units need to branch and cover multiple MIS.

 

I'm not sure how many times we see any business with so much market share sell up, but perhaps it's a really shrewd move by the current share holders/owners. As for seeing any positives - yes, I think it *could* bring life to the product, but it could equally accelerate a decline in the wrong hands. Interesting to see many referring to other potential cloud MIS providers, such as Arbor, Bromcom and a few others. OneAdvanced must be quite annoyed not to see their name mentioned. I wonder if the investors in that company would have an interest in ESS?

[DODICT]

Think this can only be a good thing for schools. The monopoly has been maintained with the help of LA teams and their traded services but the product hasnt moved forward but yet continues to demand top tier pricing - capita has been milking schools for years but realise it will come to an end without significant investment and development. Add in covid 19 has alerted a lot of schools to the limitations of their dated product so expect a jump in those leaving in the next 12 months and so they're getting rid at a point where its still an attractive proposition. So many schools just persist and are seemingly unaware of better value and more fully featured and accessible solutions and news that Capita themselves aren't backing their 'immanent' cloud solution might just be the final wake up call many schools need. But as many have said 500 mil aint pocket change and I'm thinking anyone having a closer look wont put much value on their long developed cloud follow up so would then be looking at developing from scratch - so its paying for market share but when you then realise that market has largely persisted and you're planning on presenting a completely new system, albeit a better one, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose a chunk of the market. So in summary that valuation looks high, real high.

[DrCheese]

I'd imagine the only ones who will really see a point in buying this will be one of the companies who already have a product that they can migrate users of SIMS off to - Which is a huge undertaking as they'd have to have the money to buy this & scale up accordingly...

[paulkerton]

Interesting to see many referring to other potential cloud MIS providers, such as Arbor, Bromcom and a few others. OneAdvanced must be quite annoyed not to see their name mentioned.

 

I'd mention them if I had any knowledge of their product.

The fact that the first I'd heard of this product is this post I think says a lot.

Do they exhibit at shows? Sponsor events? Work with third party support companies? Have I just missed them?

[paulkerton]

So in summary that valuation looks high, real high.

Couldn't agree more. A prospective buyer might want the brand name, buy the existing software and customer base and they might want what currently exists for SIMS 8. It certainly looked like a big improvement on SIMS .net on the surface, at least.

 

There would have to be a big discussion about how SIMS .net is supported by the development team moving forward, and the SIMS 8 development team has issues hanging over it due to the sheer slow progress in development time.

I don't know if any potential suitor would be interested in taking on Unit-E and AGILIT-e or Reading Cloud either. They might be distractions compared the much larger product in SIMS. Also, if they saw what I saw the last time I had a demonstration of it, I'm almost certain they wouldn't want to go anywhere near SIMS Finance either. It doesn't just look outdated by today's standards, it looked like where FMS should've got to 15 years ago. The demonstration I saw was a double bill with Access Education Finance. Access went first, and that was a big mistake for Capita to be the "headliner". Huge mistake.

 

There will have to be a lot of due dilligence going in for anyone who decided to take an interest in ESS. £500m is a very bold figure to put on it, to put it mildly.

[paulkerton]

I'd imagine the only ones who will really see a point in buying this will be one of the companies who already have a product that they can migrate users of SIMS off to - Which is a huge undertaking as they'd have to have the money to buy this & scale up accordingly...

And support existing customers in the meantime. Not easy. I can't think many of them, if any have the cash to do it either.

[caffrey]

A what if scenario - what happens if Capita can't sell and end up going the way of Carillion?

[crAss-teacher]

Are you sure you don't work at capita or have a vested interest? You've got 3 posts on this forum, all in this topic. Defending Capita...

 

Pretty sure

I will read my posts again , and decide whether its you or me who needs a trip to Barnard Castle.

I don't think I've defended Capita, I will have offended myself more than you if I have.

I simply pointed out that they had a SAAS product which might materially change who or for what reason they might be purchased.

I am sorry that a contrarian view is not welcomed.

I'll try and get into the spirit and say its awful but .. to be honest I haven't seen it ... so prefer not to pre-judge

 

Since then I have tried to defend some dedicated people I know who worked there in the past , but mostly ended up having to defend myself !

Don't work for Capita but feel like I have encountered a bunch of people here who work for Theresa May's Hostile environment home office department ...

 

won't waste anyone's time with further posts

[paulkerton]

A what if scenario - what happens if Capita can't sell and end up going the way of Carillion?

Then someone will buy SIMS at a knock-down price.

ESS is profitable, but not £500m sell on profitable.

For comparison, that is roughly how much Deepmind cost Google in 2014.

[caffrey]

Might be a good buy for current SAAS providers to get a good user base list in that scenario, then migrate everyone over

 

Just thinking out loud

[paulkerton]

I simply pointed out that they had a SAAS product which might materially change who or for what reason they might be purchased.

And many of us will repeat, a product that was announced in April 2018, after three substantial rewrites in the previous 7 years, which is still in the testing and reworking stages nearly 2.5 years later, leading to Capita pulling out of BETT in 2019 and not returning in 2020 as they had nothing new to show, is in no way an actual product.

 

What it is, is vapourware.

 

And at best, it gives the impression that it was announced earlier to attempt to slow migrations away to competing platforms.

I worked at a school that did just that. Investigating alternatives, then SIMS Primary was announced and all of a sudden it is decided that we will wait to see what SIMS offers moving forward, as they are the incumbent monopoly.

They're still waiting. I first started taking meetings with alternatives in September 2017, and I left in April 2019.

Edited June 22, 2020 by paulkerton

[paulkerton]

Might be a good buy for current SAAS providers to get a good user base list in that scenario, then migrate everyone over

 

If I were a current SaaS provider, I'd be looking at this model, thats for sure. I certainly wouldn't attempt to buy it in the open market at £500m

That's minimum by the way, I've seen it stated they're hoping for between £500m-£700m, which top end be £32,000 per customer - an eye wateringly ridiculous figure. That's 20% of the entire UK EdTech market's expected market value in 2021!

:eek2:

Edited June 22, 2020 by paulkerton

[Ditto]

I'd mention them if I had any knowledge of their product.

The fact that the first I'd heard of this product is this post I think says a lot.

Do they exhibit at shows? Sponsor events? Work with third party support companies? Have I just missed them?

 

OneAdvanced are probably better know as Advanced Learning. Their legacy product is CMIS, (sometimes called Facillity CMIS) and Progresso or Cloud School is there current cloud offering. Advanced used to be second only to SIMS in the secondary market a while back, but they have fallen steadily since. Like a few others, they abandoned BETT, but they did their own exhibits at times. Not sure about sponsorship. They integrate with quite a few other products but not sure if there are any specific support companies. I used the product for a good few years. It had a very shaky launch and I started using it just after the product started to mature. It has some very useful features, and for me in an all-through school ultimately it worked as intended. It certainly had it's issues, but IMHO, it was improving slowly, but I haven't used it for a couple of years now. I'm not sure quite why it's become so little known, or why it hasn't faired better. The very sizeable MAT, AET picked it, and perhaps has kept the product alive. For me, it will be interesting to see how SIMS progresses post purchase (assuming there is a buyer) and how the path compares to OneAdvanced's.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Ditto