PDF files on school website

[mikeprice]

Hi all

 

Maybe the wrong thread but...

 

anyway - last year an 'expert' reviewed a load of the primary school webites in the local area. The report on ours was OK - few bit not quite right but better than most.

 

however - one of the main comments about most of the schools' efforts were connected to PDF files - i.e. having something like a policy as a pdf file.

they were insistent that OFSTED don't like to see this and prefer it to go to a web page on the site with the etxt etc in it

 

Which is a pain - and looks much less professional IMO

I have also come across this advise from other places - but it may all originate froma single source - which may be wrong

 

so - has anyone else come across this - and it is good or bad info

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Steve21]

Not really sure which way you're asking this, as in should it be pdf or website, but in general it should be easily accessible (Not hidden away), but a policies page with all the PDFs on it etc is fine

 

If you need to hunt down 10 pages to find a PDF that isn't right, but the same goes for a website page with the policy written on it

 

Steve

[mavhc]

It's ok, no one reads policies anyway.

 

The problem is a paper first document design approach, because all adults are stuck in the past. If you're writing your policy as a paper based document you've already failed, it should be linked to and from other pages on your website, have videos and pictures, etc

[Steve21]

The problem is a paper first document design approach, because all adults are stuck in the past. If you're writing your policy as a paper based document you've already failed, it should be linked to and from other pages on your website, have videos and pictures, etc

 

Not really, I'd say the entire opposite. Policies shouldn't require online access to be viewed or used. The Ofsted requirements specifically talk about requiring schools to be able to provide paper copies of requested information.

 

There's a difference to linking to other companies documents e.g. SWGFL policy blahblah, but your policy should contain all the information in a standalone format

 

Steve

[Joanne]

The reasoning behind this was that not all devices could natively read pdf's... but nowadays they can. I know for a fact that the governors stuff has to be on a page... according the the DFE checklist I got off Primary Site anyway...

[Steve21]

The reasoning behind this was that not all devices could natively read pdf's... but nowadays they can. I know for a fact that the governors stuff has to be on a page... according the the DFE checklist I got off Primary Site anyway...

 

Yep that's right for them but that's because it's specific in the document linked to Governing Bodies. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/640562/The_constitution_of_governing_bodies_of_maintained_schools_2017.pdf

 

Page 12 - Readily accessible means that the information should be on a webpage without the need to download or open a separate document

 

Unless they've added it somewhere policies don't use that

 

Steve

[Joanne]

Agreed. Policies can be PDF.

[mavhc]

Not really, I'd say the entire opposite. Policies shouldn't require online access to be viewed or used. The Ofsted requirements specifically talk about requiring schools to be able to provide paper copies of requested information.

 

There's a difference to linking to other companies documents e.g. SWGFL policy blahblah, but your policy should contain all the information in a standalone format

 

Steve

 

A paper second approach is fine, the point is making it actually useful for people, not just the 50th random 10 page pdf no one will ever look at, or if they do, never remember anything in it.

 

If every time you mention, say, bullying, on your website you link to that paragraph of the policy, that would actually be useful

[mikeprice]

The reasoning behind this was that not all devices could natively read pdf's... but nowadays they can. I know for a fact that the governors stuff has to be on a page... according the the DFE checklist I got off Primary Site anyway...

 

Arr - that was the other place where I saw it - I hadn't got round to the governors stuff as they are 'supposed' to update that area themselves (yeah - right)

 

anyway - that seems really silly to me but whatever

[Marci]

All depends on the meaning of the term "accessible". In general this comes about as a result of inclusivity due to being a public body. If information isn't available in an accessible and inclusive manner then you are technically in breach of the Equality Act 2010. Any statutory compliance documents must be accessible to screen readers, magnifiers and TTS systems. It's not OFSTED that don't like it, it's Gov that don't like it as technically it's in breach of EU Accessibility Directives.

 

We SHOULD all be ensuring we comply to BS8878 (fka PAS78) and WCAG2 when it comes to any educational establishment's website here in the UK... and part of the BS8878 guidance is not to use PDF files unless absolutely necessary (typically to preserve layout for data processing purposes) as they are generally not considered an accessible document unless constructed in line with WCAG2. See https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf.html

 

 

Not that I can talk - my place is PDF obsessed... which is moderately better than their earlier desire to post Word Docs all over the web. End of the day, management don't listen / don't care when you tell them, and won't care until the school is sued for breach of the Equality Act.

 

At the moment we've got til 2020 to get our sites compliant with the EU directives that have come into play that cover all of this - see https://webdevlaw.uk/2016/12/05/plain-english-guide-eu-accessibility-directive/

 

And in case there's any doubt, yes, Academies are formally classed as Public Sector Bodies, so it _does_ all apply to us.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Marci

[mjk]

Yep that's right for them but that's because it's specific in the document linked to Governing Bodies. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/640562/The_constitution_of_governing_bodies_of_maintained_schools_2017.pdf

 

Page 12 - Readily accessible means that the information should be on a webpage without the need to download or open a separate document

 

Unless they've added it somewhere policies don't use that

 

Steve

 

Was it only me that saw the irony of this ??

[jmak]

With modern browsers is it not just semantics anyway? Our policies are in pdf format, stored in Google Drive. I could give you a URL for the document and it would open in a browser tab without you downloading a file.

 

The constitution of our Governing Body is also a pdf - but to prevent any arguments about whether it's really accessible or not, it's embedded in a web page - that way the document can be kept up to date without having to explain to someone how to edit pages on the website.

[Marci]

With modern browsers is it not just semantics anyway?

 

Nope... not in the slightest.

[mavhc]

Accessibility implies access for people with disabilities. Can blind users read your PDF, does it have bookmarks, alt text, an index and contents that are marked up with links for easy navigation, does it have the correct reading and tab order, has it created tables correctly, does the pdf page numbering match what's on each page?

 

Which means to start with: write it in your WP correctly (doing all the above), then export to pdf, don't print to pdf. Then check the pdf.

[jmak]

I had this in mind:

 

 

Page 12 - Readily accessible means that the information should be on a webpage without the need to download or open a separate document

 

 

Not this - which makes more sense and I can easily see the importance of:

 

All depends on the meaning of the term "accessible". In general this comes about as a result of inclusivity due to being a public body. If information isn't available in an accessible and inclusive manner then you are technically in breach of the Equality Act 2010. Any statutory compliance documents must be accessible to screen readers, magnifiers and TTS systems. It's not OFSTED that don't like it, it's Gov that don't like it as technically it's in breach of EU Accessibility Directives.

 

 

Which made me appear more inconsiderate than I like to think I am.

 

Accessibility implies access for people with disabilities. Can blind users read your PDF, does it have bookmarks, alt text, an index and contents that are marked up with links for easy navigation, does it have the correct reading and tab order, has it created tables correctly, does the pdf page numbering match what's on each page?

 

Which means to start with: write it in your WP correctly (doing all the above), then export to pdf, don't print to pdf. Then check the pdf.

 

Our website has the correct markups and alt text to work with a screen reader, but I'm pretty sure the PDFs of the policies don't - which exactly proves your point.

 

Not sure how far I'll get explaining it to anyone though - I've never seen a single document produced at our school by anyone apart from me which uses titles or headings or any other kind of markup. The only part we meet is that the documents were produced in a WP and exported, not printed.

[Sylv3r]

If this is the case - why are all school inspection reports uploaded as PDF's to their website. Perhaps they need to practice what they preach !

[Marci]

Am not bothered whether they practice it or not quite frankly. Pointless arguing rights & wrongs of it - s'been law for years... we SHOULD be doing it if responsibility for the website being compliant is in our job spec.

 

The focus on PDFs is unwarranted... from first page of WCAG2 PDF Guidance:

 

"Publication of techniques for a specific technology does not imply that the technology can be used in all situations to create content that meets WCAG 2.0 success criteria and conformance requirements. Developers need to be aware of the limitations of specific technologies and provide content in a way that is accessible to people with disabilities."

 

Just because you adapt procedures to produce WCAG2-compliant PDFs doesn't make the use of PDFs in a given context appropriate. THATs what breaks accessibility.

 

If it's textual content, it should be on a web page as HTML, not embedded in any other document format, unless absolutely necessary.

 

Branding, convenience of production etc are all cited as invalid justifications that won't be accepted should any member of the public choose to take an establishment to task over it.

[Steve21]

- s'been law for years...

 

What law are you referring to? Lots of guidance and recommendations have been linked but can't see anything that says "Must" or "can't" in that regards. Even things like BS8878 aren't legal requirements or standings etc

 

Even the Gov standard legislation in regards to Equality is offered in... yep you guessed it pdf http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpga_20100015_en.pdf

 

Steve

[elsiegee40]

Hi all

 

Maybe the wrong thread but...

 

anyway - last year an 'expert' reviewed a load of the primary school webites in the local area. The report on ours was OK - few bit not quite right but better than most.

 

however - one of the main comments about most of the schools' efforts were connected to PDF files - i.e. having something like a policy as a pdf file.

they were insistent that OFSTED don't like to see this and prefer it to go to a web page on the site with the etxt etc in it

 

Which is a pain - and looks much less professional IMO

I have also come across this advise from other places - but it may all originate froma single source - which may be wrong

 

so - has anyone else come across this - and it is good or bad info

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Rubbish. All our trust policies are pdf as it is more likely that users have a free pdf reader of some sort than have paid out for Microsoft Office. All 3 schools in our Trust had Ofsted in the last academic year and Of sted were more than happy.

 

What they do kick up a fuss about is the number of clicks taken to find a particular policy. No more than two! This was at a school we have been drafted in to support.

[Marci]

What law are you referring to? Lots of guidance and recommendations have been linked but can't see anything that says "Must" or "can't" in that regards. Even things like BS8878 aren't legal requirements or standings etc

 

Even the Gov standard legislation in regards to Equality is offered in... yep you guessed it pdf http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpga_20100015_en.pdf

 

Steve

 

Knew as soon as I typed 'law' I'd regret it... should have said it's been part of legislation for public sector bodies for years. In same way GDPR tightens DPA, the EU DDA does the same for accessibility.

[mavhc]

The comparison is between a web page and a pdf, not a Word doc and a pdf

[Steve21]

Knew as soon as I typed 'law' I'd regret it... should have said it's been part of legislation for public sector bodies for years. In same way GDPR tightens DPA, the EU DDA does the same for accessibility.

 

Ah fair enough! Thought might have glanced over one.

 

Thanks for clarifying

 

Steve

[Marci]

That whole hazy nomenclature of law vs common law vs statutory law / legislation and regulation does my head in... I always forget!

 

In terms of gov practicing what they preach... here's their own guidance for their use of PDFs.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-publish-on-gov-uk/accessible-pdfs

 

The root gov digital services index and GDS Design Principals makes for interesting reading also... this is a good starting framework schools should be utilising / referring to for clues (assuming things stay as they are with regards us hoovering up EU legislation into UK legislation via Brexit etc)

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-publish-on-gov-uk & https://www.gov.uk/design-principles & GOV.UK elements

 

At least, that is the general intention of it all anyways.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Marci

[elsiegee40]

Moved to Information Handling forum as it seems more appropriate

[pcstru]

I think as @Marci says, the advice against using PDF's stems from a) the DDA and b) the internal structure of a PDF document itself, which is often extremely difficult for screen readers to deal with (as used by visually impaired) and sometimes impossible (i.e. text rendered by a PDF writer as a bitmap). Basically, HTML is accessible by design, PDF is not. That said it is not black and white. If you are careful (or lucky) when producing the PDF, you can produce accessible documents. PDF's have also improved over the years - both in functionality and the ability of software to produce sensible structured documents.

 

So I'd summarise : exclusive use of PDF's to present information which must be accessible by the public carries a small risk, first of re-work if you are unlucky (i.e. producing naff PDF's) and someone complains, then secondly of a discrimination case if you refuse to do that re-work. Mitigation of the risk is easy enough, produce accessible PDF files or provide information in multiple formats.