Tell us about BSF

[Deaks]

This idea is to get the average person onside to try and stop the BSF forcing Managed Services…

 

Surely the idea is to have a balanced argument and let "the average person" make up their own mind?

[torledo]

Tony is a very very intelligent and articulated Man... and this makes him dangerous very dangerous to our cause as he gives people ideas and content to BSF argument….

 

This idea is to get the average person onside to try and stop the BSF forcing Managed Services… ..

 

Yet Tony gives these people who would never have thought of the information he supplies the information to query us… and as they say… “Information is Power”

 

i think the difference between you and Tony is that it appears he actually sits in on a lot of high-level meetings no doubt in his capacity as senior edugeeker and for his own school within his authoirity.

 

It then becames difficult to constantly bash the MSP's when you actually here what they have to say and what their proposals are first hand....instead of the heresay and smoke and mirrors that seems to be everyone elses experience. So no doubt he has to do the fence sitting because BSF isn't going away and it's better to keep an open mind so as to be able to negotiate better deals instead of a purely obstinate approach.

 

At the end of the day not everyones experience is going to be the same, and no doubt there are some people for whom the whole experience won't turn into the apocalyptic scenario you endlessly describe.

[Grommit]

experience. So no doubt he has to do the fence sitting because BSF isn't going away and it's better to keep an open mind so as to be able to negotiate better deals instead of a purely obstinate approach.

 

 

Please read the thread before replying as you are grabbing the wrong end of the stick......

 

THE IDEA OF THIS THREAD IS SO AS SOMEONE CAN DO AN ARTICLE....THE IDEA OF THE ARTICLE I HOPE IS TO PAINT THE BSF OUTSOURSING IN A BAD LIGHT...

 

it's not about negotiating deals with MSPs.. ITS ABOUT GETTING THE PUBLIC TO SEE THE BAD SIDE OF BSF OUTSOUCING IN SCHOOLS THAT HAVE GOOD ICT...

 

So having someone bigging up the outsourcing is not a good thing.... why he's doing it I have no idea..

 

At the end of the day not everyones experience is going to be the same, and no doubt there are some people for whom the whole experience won't turn into the apocalyptic scenario you endlessly describe.

 

This is not what this thread is about...

 

and if you look at this forum you'll see why you were dozing in your server room having an afternoon nap I was trying to get this forum up and started because most people act like you.. people who really couldn't care less

 

 

Surely the idea is to have a balanced argument and let "the average person" make up their own mind?

 

 

Yes and the average person uses the information given to them or at hand.. if they have limited information then they make decisions on that...

 

If they have an intelligent person feeding them harmful (to us) informatoin then they will use that...

 

I have information to hand that can cause a lot of damage and harm to a certain group.... yet I choose to remain silent so no damage is caused... or I could open my big mouth and play devils advocate and ruin them...

Edited March 12, 2008 by GrumbleDook

[beeswax]

What GD is doing is being a "Critical Friend". He's pointing out the arguments that private companies will use against us, showing us where our weak spots are so we can tighten up our case against managed services. I honestly don't believe he's setting us up for a fall. Much better to have this brought to our attention now than not have an answer when push comes to shove. If GD really wanted to screw us up then surely he'd sit back and say nothing while we took our partially formed argument to "the public".

Nobody is right 100% of the time. We all get things wrong. So rather than bring an ill-prepared argument to the table because we get upset when someone, a friend, points out a flaw in our case, let's benefit from what GD is saying and sharpen our case. Be rational even though the stakes are so high, because losing your temper in an argument might make you feel good for a while, but if the result is you lose the case, what are you left with?

Work with the grain.

[GrumbleDook]

Yes, in this conversation I am purely playing the Devil's Advocate.

 

No matter how much I think will be good for some schools, I know it will be a disaster to so many others, and even in the schools that it would be god for there will be a backwards step in a number of areas.

 

Please note that my definition of good vastly differs to that of others. Yes, I am senior manglement. My primary concern is that ICT has a positive impact on the learning that takes place in the school, and the positive impact can be measured by an increase in achievement and attainment of students, a reduction in absence (authorised and unauthorised) and the improvement of leadership within the school at all levels. I have held these views for the last 8 years since I started getting involved in more than just the box on the desk, being influenced by a number of people who truly are innovative (a fair few of them are lurkers on here!), and it is good to see that the above are the same base criteria that PfS and Becta use too. Believe me, it is not a coincidence. The same people who have influenced me have influenced others.

 

Yes, there are hard decisions to be made about a choice between choosing the right technology and methodology, or what can be afforded, implemented and used correctly. n some schools this is a big difference, in others not so big a difference, but a difference nonetheless.

 

A lot of the arguements and concerns raised are valid. However, they are not coaxed in te right language, aimed at the right people or supported by the right groups. The two largest factors in this is that most of us have limited experience on educational leadership, giving us the ability to says what is making a difference. The other factor is that we have no true measurement about how good we are and the impact we have. If we can deal with these then people will take it more seriously.

 

*Even then* there may not be anything that we, either individually within our schools or collectively as a group, can do about it as some of this is school, LA or Govt politics.

 

I will continue playing Devil's Advocate until someone else picks up the reins ... and then I will challenge *their* views. I've always found that the best way of learning to battle someone is to learn how they themselves fight. For those Terry Pratchett fans ... just think about Thud.

[GrumbleDook]

To be honest folks I can understand why Grommit is narked. The thread is meant to be about taking a look at the other, perhaps nastier, side of BSF. Looking at the problems it caused rather than to solutions it claims to offer.

 

I can also understand why many would be frustrated that I defend it, but mainly do so when they attack it. The BSF bidders will not come onto the site and defend themselves as that is commercial suicide. Govt agencies will not come on and defend themselves because that is political suicide. Instead I can only feed back from conversation had, reports from meetings in other areas ... and try not to use hearsay (not the manufactured pop group ... but unverified information heard or received from another).

 

Given a chance I would like to take the other stance for a change.

 

I also have to apologies to the group in general as work commitments have prevented me so far from sorting out meetings with other bidders. I would like to do more of that sort of thing, to go to their offices and challenge them in person, but it is done in my own time (as it was for those others at the RM meeting) and is difficult to fit in. Should the opportunity arise for more meetings to take place then I would prefer to have a combination of those that want to challenge the status quo as well as those that believe that we need to work with them, but change their direction.

[contink]

No offence here... I understand the rational of the thread but this doesn't make the arguments on the other side any less true..

 

The point isn't to sit and go "Oooooh, bad!" and then let that lie so the tabloid idiots (sorry but they are!) can grab the most sensationalist rubbish from the lot to create a little more sales... it's to take a long hard but rational look at the arguments and then point out the holes.

 

If we talk like a bunch of stereotypical old women we'll get treated as such and if nought else GD (names changed to indite the guilty) provides the sort of counter argument that's required to refine our own points regarding the down side to BSF. He's not writing their PR so let's not treat him or any other authors of positives as "traitors". That's just plain dumb.

Edited March 12, 2008 by contink

[GrumbleDook]

DB? No .. I'm GD ... he is God, I am just a poor minion, slaving over a stand at BETT and nicking lots of pizza.

[torledo]

@grommit

 

i think you're the one getting the wrong end of the stick...i was just trying to reason as to why GD is playing 'devil's advocate'.....

 

but he's big enough and ugly enough to articulate his position without my interjection. As he has done on numerous occasions. Looks like you're the one who's been snoozing while he's posted numerous posts in previous threads in a similar vein.

 

I do accept you're point about the point of this thread, particularly as the most of the internet articles paint a bright, rosy future for BSF managed IT. Most of it lazy journalism and I agree it's important to redress the balance in favour of pointing out the pitfalls and dangers of bsf managed IT.

Edited March 12, 2008 by torledo

[Grommit]

Ok i have just done 3 hours of Yoga and I am feeling chilled again :-)

[GrumbleDook]

Ok i have just done 3 hours of Yoga and I am feeling chilled again :-)

 

Nice, I am off for a soak in the bath to relax, with the knowledge that I am out in London tomorrow with little access to the site. A bit of time to be offline.

 

Niiiiice.

[Butuz]

THE IDEA OF THIS THREAD IS SO AS SOMEONE CAN DO AN ARTICLE....THE IDEA OF THE ARTICLE I HOPE IS TO PAINT THE BSF OUTSOURSING IN A BAD LIGHT...

 

The thread is called "Tell us about BSF".

 

It is not called "Tell us about all of the bad things of BSF"

 

It is not called "Paint BSF in a bad light"

 

The thread is very interesting and thought provoking. If we (by we I mean our profession as a whole) come across in articles as very bitter, twisted, resistant to change, and deaf to others point's of view, and only lookig after our own jobs - as you come across - WE are the ones that will end up being painted in a bad light - NOT BSF!

 

Balanced and rational arguments are what the article need's. Plenty of witch there are in this thread. It just needs to be compiled together in a manner that doesnt come across as bitter, twisted etc.

 

Butuz

[Grommit]

The thread is called "Tell us about BSF".

 

It is not called "Tell us about all of the bad things of BSF"

 

It is not called "Paint BSF in a bad light"

 

The thread is very interesting and thought provoking. If we (by we I mean our profession as a whole) come across in articles as very bitter, twisted, resistant to change, and deaf to others point's of view, and only lookig after our own jobs - as you come across - WE are the ones that will end up being painted in a bad light - NOT BSF!

 

Balanced and rational arguments are what the article need's. Plenty of witch there are in this thread. It just needs to be compiled together in a manner that doesnt come across as bitter, twisted etc.

 

Butuz

 

Maybe you should read what I said again SLOWLY and you might understand what I am getting at. ... I agree on a rational argument anyday.. but we don't need someone with super intelligence feeding/giving super information to the enemy

 

Are you that naive to think that because you are playing as a gentlemen they will... they want your Network as it means profits to them... Well not yours because Wales is not going to be purged by the BSF?..

[torledo]

Maybe you should read what I said again SLOWLY and you might understand what I am getting at. ... I agree on a rational argument anyday.. but we don't need someone with super intelligence feeding/giving super information to the enemy

 

Are you that naive to think that because you are playing as a gentlemen they will... they want your Network as it means profits to them... Well not yours because Wales is not going to be purged by the BSF?..

 

That's enough brown-nosing of GD....at any rate, i'm sure his IQ is only above average.......

 

Cue edugeek debate about IQ tests as indicator of intelligence

[Joanne]

I'll be the other hand!!

 

So, on the other hand managed service could provide us with proper career structure and more potential to suceed.

 

Only if they don't make us redundant though after the 2 years of TUPED (chewpy-ed)

[Joanne]

also.. schools with $#!T networks will get a better deal out of the BSF project....

 

however, schools that allready have good networks could be shafted... hmmm...

[Deaks]

I'll be the other hand!!

 

So, on the other hand managed service could provide us with proper career structure and more potential to suceed.

 

Only if they don't make us redundant though after the 2 years of TUPED (chewpy-ed)

 

There's no time limit to the protection offered by TUPE.

[GrumbleDook]

Maybe you should read what I said again SLOWLY and you might understand what I am getting at. ... I agree on a rational argument anyday.. but we don't need someone with super intelligence feeding/giving super information to the enemy

 

Are you that naive to think that because you are playing as a gentlemen they will... they want your Network as it means profits to them... Well not yours because Wales is not going to be purged by the BSF?..

 

I'm no more super-intelligent than you, Broc, beeswax or most other members.

 

@torledo: IQ is not a good measure of intelligence, it just means you know how to think in a particular manner. And in case you are wondering, 152 ... and it is purely down to knowing how to play the game.

 

The only advantage I have to any other members is that I have a bit more of an insight into the minds of the BSF ideas people and the companies involved.

 

Seriously ... if someone wants to take the 'BSF side' for a week I will arge from the other side of the fence.

[torledo]

I'm no more super-intelligent than you, Broc, beeswax or most other members.

 

@torledo: IQ is not a good measure of intelligence, it just means you know how to think in a particular manner. And in case you are wondering, 152 ... and it is purely down to knowing how to play the game.

 

The only advantage I have to any other members is that I have a bit more of an insight into the minds of the BSF ideas people and the companies involved.

 

Seriously ... if someone wants to take the 'BSF side' for a week I will arge from the other side of the fence.

 

I wasn't wondering, but 152!!!! that must make you top 1%, surely.

 

I often take a similar 'alternate' stance on many subjects. Particulalry when i see a majority view being argued or defended i like to take the opposite stand in the name of 'balance'

Edited March 14, 2008 by torledo

[mortstar]

Seriously ... if someone wants to take the 'BSF side' for a week I will argue from the other side of the fence.

 

I can't do it for a week - I couldn't stand the grommit flames ;-)

 

----

 

Without trying to inflate the ego of members of this board, it could be argued that by participating in such a forum we are more likely to be the most pro-active of network support personnel in schools, therefore we are more likely to be running stable, secure and innovative networks. However, this certainly isn't the case for all schools. We've all heard the horror stories from the new teachers from different schools and we've met the network manager who is obdurate to the improvement of the school network and to any change to the status quo. These schools will benefit massively as the 'baseline' brings these schools up-to-date.

 

Having a homogeneous infrastructure across LA schools will provide massive benefits for the users of our networks and will provide real transferability. Teachers and pupils have a single network identity to access all their own resources from any school within the authority, indeed from any internet enabled PC. The movement of pupils across schools will become a joined up process where their user id, password, cash for the canteen, MIS data, VLE data all transfer with them automatically.

 

The purchasing power of an entire LA will deliver real value for taxpayers' money. Authorities will be able to 'flex their muscles' with the big-boys and drive education prices down not just for the cash-rich schools with 2 or 3 specialisms, but for all.

 

What about the current network support personnel, won't we be losing their expertise? Well, no, really. The good managed service providers will realise the expertise that their new employees provide and will keep these people involved on the 'front-line'. What BSF does provide is a 'widening of horizons'. Proper CPD will mean those with the talent will rise to the top of the educational IT support and will not only be providing innovation in 1 school but will be passing on their good ideas to whole cohorts of schools. With more and more of these roles developing, best practices will evolve, still on sites like this, that spread far and wide into school networks.

 

----

 

Just a few of the benefits of BSF that I can see, through rose-tinted glasses of course!

[donutcat]

I have yesterday been given a copy of the guidance our county head teachers are receiving from the BSF board in our area following a techies meeting (we have them once a term). The guidance gives three options for discussion, none of which include keeping in school IT. There is to be no consultation on ICT provision that includes in house staff. The BSF project for the county will include ICT consultants to pick the managed service provider, and there will be no consultation with existing staff.

 

How can this be a measured, every child matters approach. This is purely a pie cutter stamp out another school approach rather than letting schools with specific needs get a system that is tailored to them.

We do very different things here than other schools in the area, as our student body demands different approaches from us, how can that not be recognised by BSF projects, the overall process and partnerships for schools. My only hope is that when schools are asked to assist in writing the SLA and service provision spec the staff here ask for what they have now and are not persuaded by the promises of the MSP. Bearing in mind that the systems and concepts promised that are not currently available are down to money not being available to us to set them up now.

 

I've had a couple of rants so far, but I have a feeling there will be many more to come.

 

DC

[contink]

Just a few of the benefits of BSF that I can see, through rose-tinted glasses of course!

 

I'm sorry I have to ask... WTF were you smoking?!!

 

Those glasses weren't rose tinted they were opaque

[Grommit]

I wasn't wondering, but 152!!!! that must make you top 1%, surely.

 

I often take a similar 'alternate' stance on many subjects. Particulalry when i see a majority view being argued or defended i like to take the opposite stand in the name of 'balance'

 

So you have no Loyality or Honour then.. you are a"Fence Sitter" a person without conviction...

 

but in reality you just argue for the sake of arguing...

[SpuffMonkey]

I wasn't wondering, but 152!!!! that must make you top 1%, surely.

 

I often take a similar 'alternate' stance on many subjects. Particulalry when i see a majority view being argued or defended i like to take the opposite stand in the name of 'balance'

 

Any other Mensa members here?

[Grommit]

Mortstar said in some bizarre fashion of having sex with a Preying Mantis

 

Having a homogeneous infrastructure across LA schools will provide massive benefits for the users of our networks and will provide real transferability. Teachers and pupils have a single network identity to access all their own resources from any school within the authority, indeed from any internet enabled PC. The movement of pupils across schools will become a joined up process where their user id, password, cash for the canteen, MIS data, VLE data all transfer with them automatically.

 

The purchasing power of an entire LA will deliver real value for taxpayers' money. Authorities will be able to 'flex their muscles' with the big-boys and drive education prices down not just for the cash-rich schools with 2 or 3 specialisms, but for all.

 

We all Agree that the bad schools will benifit from the BSF... but the good schools will be worse off

 

But the "deliver real value for taxpayers' money" is not going to happen..

 

1/The cost of supporting a school is going to double

 

2/ Remember the Computers for Pupils ? The thousands and thousands of Laptops and PC's that the Government bought children on Free School Meals... well our Laptops and PC's were nearly a £100 more expensive than MISCO, and I said to the LA that we were being ripped by the supplier chosen by the LA and thay said that I cannot buy from MISCO or A N other and I have to by from the "chosen one"

 

So where's your "flexing" here then..? the LA knew that it was more expensive but still chose them.. and we lost out on 50 laptops for children because of being forced to by at inflated prices.

 

What about the current network support personnel, won't we be losing their expertise? Well, no, really. The good managed service providers will realise the expertise that their new employees provide and will keep these people involved on the 'front-line'. What BSF does provide is a 'widening of horizons'. Proper CPD will mean those with the talent will rise to the top of the educational IT support and will not only be providing innovation in 1 school but will be passing on their good ideas to whole cohorts of schools. With more and more of these roles developing, best practices will evolve, still on sites like this, that spread far and wide into school networks.

 

Take Hackney... the NM's are being phased out and replaced with a single "Technical Manager" overlooking the 10 BSF schools...

 

The Technical Staff are being halved on the sites, one site from 3 to 1.5 tech's...

 

The Network Managers are asked to apply for any job on the RM job board... but there is only 1 job in 10 BSF Builds for the Network Mangers Position... the other 9 will be TUPED for a short while until they can find another job...

 

(infact there is only 1 job today in RM for a "Technical Manager")

 

Then they will be retrenched under the Economic Opt Out Clause in the TUPE regulations..

 

Now this is maybe the Template for RM BSF Rollout accross the country..

 

 

 

PS.. If the BSF is so great why are none of the BSF Finished School Technicians on the board raving about it ?..

 

a/ Maybe it's not that good...

 

or b/ they have been gagged as I know that RM takes a very harsh view of negative threads about them.. even as an end user we were blocked from chatting on forums with the threat of losingn the software

Edited March 14, 2008 by Grommit