RM - Discuss

[u8dmtm]

Isn't problem with Vanilla networks that:

 

a) you have to think of everything

b) as far as the school is concerned 'your' network may not easily be picked up by your succesor if you leave

c) more time is spent on doing things that CC3 does automatically

 

Also, on the Printer Queues question - just give the staff Print Operators, or do what you would in vanilla - which still works just fine in CC3.

[Quackers]

Isn't problem with Vanilla networks that:

 

a) you have to think of everything

b) as far as the school is concerned 'your' network may not easily be picked up by your succesor if you leave

c) more time is spent on doing things that CC3 does automatically

 

Also, on the Printer Queues question - just give the staff Print Operators, or do what you would in vanilla - which still works just fine in CC3.

 

Not really.

 

Whats the difference between adding users in a vanilla system in active directory then adding users in RM connect?

 

Whats the difference between deploying software via MSI packages on a group policy or using RM connect?

 

As for spending more time doing things that RM Connect does automatically i cannnot think of anything.

 

RM Connect 3 is an overpriced print quota software. If you had 300 PC's that would be £30,000 wasted on CC3 client licences.

 

The tools RM Connect 3 offers are no longer needed since Windows 2000 was born. Now all RM Connect does is get in the way and give users an interface they will not find in industry.

 

RM Connect is bad for students. It wastes schools resources big time, and allows some people to think they are system administrators when they are infact clueless and some from experience go cross eyed when shown group policy's, how to edit them and active directory and do not understand that this what RM Connect is using. How the hell are people who do not know what Active Directory or Group Policy's are allowed Administrator rights on a 2000/2003 domain.

 

I know there are some out there who do run RM Connect 3 and do know a lot about the more technical side. But the amount of people i see being paid more than me to run Connect 3 networks and are clueless really pisses me off big time. I'll put my claws away now.

[Dos_Box]

Isn't problem with Vanilla networks that:

 

a) you have to think of everything

b) as far as the school is concerned 'your' network may not easily be picked up by your succesor if you leave

c) more time is spent on doing things that CC3 does automatically

 

Also, on the Printer Queues question - just give the staff Print Operators, or do what you would in vanilla - which still works just fine in CC3.

 

a) Thats what we are paid for, and besides it's how you learn. No one outside (and even inside) education would employ someone boasting of RM skills (what little there are).

 

b) Anyone who is experienced and\or qualified can unpick a 'vanilla' network. You would require an RM training course (at expense of course) before being totally sure of doing anything in depth with RM.

 

c) Such as?

[webman]

In my opinion, RM handles RIS and package allocation better than on a vanilla network.

[u8dmtm]

In answer:

 

- When I started in this job they were running Connect 2.4. So my first exposure to RM was not good. However I still chose CC3 over W2K/XP vanilla. Its an out of the box solution that suits the needs of schools.

 

a) We are NOT paid to think of everything, we are paid to deliver the most educationally focussed ICT facility - reinventing the wheel is a waste of time.

 

b) Unpicking a vanilla network assumes that the person who picked it did a reasonably good job of it. If you know AD you can easily work CC3, so that idea that you need training before doing anything with it is wrong.

 

It is true that CC3 is not the magic potion it claims to be and if you do have a "clue" then it is easy to see that it is simply an additional layer, but a useful layer that saves time and does an efficient job of it. I would like to know when vanilla users got the time to start from scratch whilst also being nagged to do all the other jobs that people want them to do. I don't know about other people but there are plenty of other things to be doing. For me that includes coding, training and all the usual hardware and user stuff.

[GrumbleDook]

As usual ... playing Devil's Advocate here ...

 

There are bonuses for RM (or other managed solutions) rather than a vanilla 2K3 network ...

 

For schools that have minimal technical support or schools where the support team are concentrated on other areas CC3 can save time (and that also means money) on a number of tasks that can be done by other means.

 

The packaging of applications has been made easy in CC3 and you pay for this ... in a vanilla network you pay for this too, but as a seperate cost with things like Wise or the full verion of WinINSTALL.

 

Print control is an extra in a vanilla system (PCounter and Print manager Plus seem to be the most common) and again ... at a cost.

 

The benefits of vanilla systems over CC3 ...

 

There are so many tools and places for help it is unbelievable (actually, this can sometimes be a bac thing ... but generally it is good)

 

There is at least one less level of obfustication when having to fix a problem.

 

You can build the tools you need, and know exactly what they do.

 

I keep saying that whatever works in a school ... then let it work. The only time I will draw a line is when it is not cos effective or if it works for one person and disadvantages everyone else.

 

We also have to remember that until recently the ICT Co-ordinator may have been the person running the show with the system in the school and that meant they were on seriously limited time ... CC3 is a perfect response to this ... and as more teachers do just that, teach ... we will find a greater need for support staff in school to take up the slack, sometimes it is not always possible to allow them the time to build a system that works exactly as required and an out of the box solution can be the best thing.

 

Personally, if it meant that the support team has more time to get on with other things then CC3 would be an option for me ... that £60000 may seem alot, but that is the cost of a techie (with on costs) for nearly 3 years. In some cases it might be worth it but in others maybe not.

[Norphy]

We recently rebuilt our entire domain and network infrastructure from scratch. It took about six months of planning and design and we implemented it all during the summer holidays. Yes, I had other things to do during the term time but I managed to find the time.

 

You say that reinventing the wheel is a waste of time. I admit I haven't looked that much into CC3 but there doesn't seem to be an awful lot in there which can't be acheived using standard Active Directory or Netware. Seems to me that RM is reinventing the wheel....

 

/edit

 

In case it's not obvious, this post was aimed at u8dmtm's previous post

[u8dmtm]

I'm not saying CC3 is better than vanilla. I know it certainly isn't - but only if you have the time.

[Quackers]

Just seen this

 

http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products/Story.asp?cref=PS321950&catref=1624.2.3.299

 

 

What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.

[TechMonkey]

Boot and logon speed was a problem a long while back, but now they pretty fast. As far as I can remember they way it was explained to me was the test was done between vanilla and CC3 systems setup to create the same security on both using GPO's and AD only. MAybe Edugeek could phone them and ask for the test documentation so a piece could be done on it? Would be interesting.

 

As for the general debate, I think GrumbleDook put it best, make your choice, go with it and as long as it makes sense all will be well in the world. We went this way because for the benefit of the school we could not see us updating ourselves through training, planning it all, and supporting the current system in the time frame and to within the cost of getting the RM solution. Once it was installed we had a framework to go with, a base secure system that we have added and tweaked and ended up with a system that works for the school and is stable. Both my boss and I were very tempted to go vanilla purely from the we get to fiddle and learn stuff point of view but for the school we thought it was best.

 

I think the long term goal is to possibly start to drift away now that we have got an up-to-date system and can have the time to update our skills as and when, now AD is in and I doubt is going to change in a massive way anytime soon.

[russdev]

Boot and logon speed was a problem a long while back, but now they pretty fast. As far as I can remember they way it was explained to me was the test was done between vanilla and CC3 systems setup to create the same security on both using GPO's and AD only. MAybe Edugeek could phone them and ask for the test documentation so a piece could be done on it? Would be interesting.

 

As for the general debate, I think GrumbleDook put it best, make your choice, go with it and as long as it makes sense all will be well in the world. We went this way because for the benefit of the school we could not see us updating ourselves through training, planning it all, and supporting the current system in the time frame and to within the cost of getting the RM solution. Once it was installed we had a framework to go with, a base secure system that we have added and tweaked and ended up with a system that works for the school and is stable. Both my boss and I were very tempted to go vanilla purely from the we get to fiddle and learn stuff point of view but for the school we thought it was best.

 

I think the long term goal is to possibly start to drift away now that we have got an up-to-date system and can have the time to update our skills as and when, now AD is in and I doubt is going to change in a massive way anytime soon.

 

I give me contacts a quick email and see if can get it will write something up..

 

Russ

[nawbus]

Can't speak for the vanilla network, but the speed sounds about right for a CC3 one.

[Mintsoft]

Just seen this

 

http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products/Story.asp?cref=PS321950&catref=1624.2.3.299

 

 

What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.

 

I have to say, there isnt a single RM machine in this entire college that boots & logs on in under 4 minutes. Even the 'ever so good' RM One 3ghz 64bit machines. Even my old Duron 800 at home boots and logs on faster. We broadcast a boot message in the morning so that we're not waiting around for the damn things to boot in the morning. Thank god for WOL

[russdev]

Just seen this

 

http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products/Story.asp?cref=PS321950&catref=1624.2.3.299

 

 

What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.

 

I have to say, there isnt a single RM machine in this entire college that boots & logs on in under 4 minutes. Even the 'ever so good' RM One 3ghz 64bit machines. Even my old Duron 800 at home boots and logs on faster. We broadcast a boot message in the morning so that we're not waiting around for the damn things to boot in the morning. Thank god for WOL

 

have you applied various cc3 updates will try and find list ones you need...

 

russ

[Mintsoft]

Just seen this

 

http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products/Story.asp?cref=PS321950&catref=1624.2.3.299

 

 

What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.

 

I have to say, there isnt a single RM machine in this entire college that boots & logs on in under 4 minutes. Even the 'ever so good' RM One 3ghz 64bit machines. Even my old Duron 800 at home boots and logs on faster. We broadcast a boot message in the morning so that we're not waiting around for the damn things to boot in the morning. Thank god for WOL

 

have you applied various cc3 updates will try and find list ones you need...

 

russ

 

We're upto date with every update that RM have thrown out at us but there's been no change (positive or negative) in speed with any of the updates. Doesn't seem like there is much that we can actually do.

 

Rob

[russdev]

hmm interesting have you got a support callopen over this i suggest you do that...

 

do us afavour

 

also have you got two machines the same turn off Station Access Control on one of workstations close them down

 

start w/s with out Station Access Control Optimisation on and record time until hard drive light stops flashing

 

then do same again with one with it on what is time difference...

 

russ

[Mintsoft]

hmm interesting have you got a support callopen over this i suggest you do that...

 

do us afavour

 

also have you got two machines the same turn off Station Access Control on one of workstations close them down

 

start w/s with out Station Access Control Optimisation on and record time until hard drive light stops flashing

 

then do same again with one with it on what is time difference...

 

russ

 

Yeah i can do that tonight when the students have smegged off, IF i get time. I dont think we have a call open over it at the moment as we're having more pressing "rebuilding" problems atm.

[u8dmtm]

There is something seriously wrong if you can't get a 3GHz RM One to boot and login in 4 minutes on CC3, we have similar stations which can do so in well under 2 minutes:

 

- is this true even for a clean station and clean profile?

- what is your infrastructure like?

- how heavily loaded are your DCs?

[russdev]

Boot and logon speed was a problem a long while back, but now they pretty fast. As far as I can remember they way it was explained to me was the test was done between vanilla and CC3 systems setup to create the same security on both using GPO's and AD only. MAybe Edugeek could phone them and ask for the test documentation so a piece could be done on it? Would be interesting.

 

got documents from rm will do bit of reading overweekend and write something up

 

Russ

[Mintsoft]

There is something seriously wrong if you can't get a 3GHz RM One to boot and login in 4 minutes on CC3, we have similar stations which can do so in well under 2 minutes:

 

- is this true even for a clean station and clean profile?

- what is your infrastructure like?

- how heavily loaded are your DCs?

 

It's better for a clean profile I do admit. The 4 minutes is for my account, takes about 15 seconds to login on my 2000 laptop (without a profile cache) and several minutes on an RM station. Even though my profile does seem to be rather large compared to most, it still illustrates the difference in speed between RM and the laptop.

 

Our infrastructure is goddamn awful because sadly I don't have control over it. The 2 servers are nowhere near balanced and they're terribly underpowered. But alas! its out of my hands ;_;

-Rob

[free4440273]

I have pulled out rm out of all four schools i work at - put in bespoke systems which work wonders...same goes for ranger which is just as crap...lea has a policy of NO rm. period.

[naisarg]

we have just switched from RM to Ranger as it is flexiable. And the best part is that you can go to more than one dealer, so not tied in. Also for those that are interested Dell machines work on the RM network. We have saved a lot.

[russdev]

ironic really when rm owns ranger

 

ok the two firms shall never meet for another 2 years i think...

 

russ

[free4440273]

i always thought the irony lie in the fact that both were carp...and that people would want to spend money on them...

[NetworkGeezer]

I think the best recommendation for RM is that russDev uses it to manage a school singlehandedly still has time to be majordomos on eduGeek including holding the posting record (try harder Geoff, nearly there )