It has to end here...

[enjay]

frankly it's this "There's no choice, we're hostage to this" that does absolutely nothing to encourage MS or anyone else to get with the program.

Probably true, however I find it highly unlikely that I could convince people to take the open source plunge here, so we (i.e. this school) are hostage to it. I can like that or not, but it won't alter it so, as I said, I might as well get on with it.

 

Not at this school not yet anyway

Nor here for some while, either. I'm yet to see a single business reason for the upgrade, but I am confident that at some point our hand will be forced by software or hardware compatibility or by the cessation of XP supply.

 

as for trying it on my own machine well lets just say im not forking out 500 quid for one louzy vista license

Vista didn't cost me anything - the last time I was buying a PC for a department, I specced it with Vista, took the new one myself and gave them my "old" one :-)

[mac_shinobi]

frankly it's this "There's no choice, we're hostage to this" that does absolutely nothing to encourage MS or anyone else to get with the program.

Probably true, however I find it highly unlikely that I could convince people to take the open source plunge here, so we (i.e. this school) are hostage to it. I can like that or not, but it won't alter it so, as I said, I might as well get on with it.

 

Not at this school not yet anyway

Nor here for some while, either. I'm yet to see a single business reason for the upgrade, but I am confident that at some point our hand will be forced by software or hardware compatibility or by the cessation of XP supply.

 

as for trying it on my own machine well lets just say im not forking out 500 quid for one louzy vista license

Vista didn't cost me anything - the last time I was buying a PC for a department, I specced it with Vista, took the new one myself and gave them my "old" one :-)

 

Agree with you on the no business reasons and lol @ specing a machine up with vista and swapping with them.

 

Got a machine being delivered for me tommorow but speced it with windows xp sp 2.

 

I don't wanna go down the vista route, think I would much rather go with ubuntu or something else then that.

[mac_shinobi]

Thing is Michael, where was the PC purchased from?

 

The number of times i've seen Vista Ready PC's sold that would have trouble running XP with any great performance.

 

No kidding, I saw a "reputable" retailer seeling a Vista laptop with a 5,400rpm HDD and 512mb ram and claimed it's Vista Ready.

 

Not sure about vista ready but am sure it would defintly be Me or 98 ready lol.

 

Wonder what windows 2000 would be like on one of those supposed vista ready machines that have got a 5,400rpm hard drive and 512mb ram lol.

[localzuk]

When it comes to rolling out Vista, I have the following in my head:

 

1. Much of our existing educational software will not work properly in Vista, so much new software would have to be purchased if we updated

2. About 30% of our machines wouldn't work with Vista as the memory in them is too low.

3. If it is going to cost so much to roll out Vista, would it work out cheaper to migrate to Ubuntu and have a terminal server box for SIMS.net and the like?

 

At the moment, it is looking significantly cheaper to go with Ubuntu. The only problem would be training the staff for the new environment - although, this could easily be crafted to look a lot like Windows.

[Netman]

At the moment, it is looking significantly cheaper to go with Ubuntu. The only problem would be training the staff for the new environment - although, this could easily be crafted to look a lot like Windows.

 

That's the way I see it too. Vista is just a non-starter for me. I was hoping SP1 would improve things, but it doesn't look promising...

There's a good chance we'll be running Ubuntu here within the next 2 years.

Bill couldn't have done more for the Open Source movement if he tried 8O

(BTW, this comes from a confirmed MS stalwart of many years, MCSE etc. etc.)

[Joanne]

so... who has linux as their main OS's's in their schools?

[mac_shinobi]

Not sure about the school but id much rather go with mac os x ( tiger or leopard ) then go with vista.

 

We only use linux for the proxy for now.

[enjay]

1. Much of our existing educational software will not work properly in Vista, so much new software would have to be purchased if we updated

Is that actually based on anything, or just "the word on the street"? I'd read the same scare-mongering articles as you about how everything will need upgrading or replacing, but when it actually came down to it, found literally just one application which doesn't work under Vista (and that is due to be upgraded next year anyway).

[mac_shinobi]

Side note here :

 

Presuming vista comes with IE 7 which is a safe bet. How do you remove IE 7 webernet jackers ( such as the ones that hijackthis removes ) in IE 7.

 

Just wondering .....

[contink]

1. Much of our existing educational software will not work properly in Vista, so much new software would have to be purchased if we updated

Is that actually based on anything, or just "the word on the street"? I'd read the same scare-mongering articles as you about how everything will need upgrading or replacing, but when it actually came down to it, found literally just one application which doesn't work under Vista (and that is due to be upgraded next year anyway).

Unfortunately in primary circles the software tends to be difficult enough to get it working with XP.. Quite a few are only now really stable with the older OS so Vista is unlikely to be much better.

 

Course that's supposition without testing so at present I couldn't confirm or deny at this point.

[localzuk]

1. Much of our existing educational software will not work properly in Vista, so much new software would have to be purchased if we updated

Is that actually based on anything, or just "the word on the street"? I'd read the same scare-mongering articles as you about how everything will need upgrading or replacing, but when it actually came down to it, found literally just one application which doesn't work under Vista (and that is due to be upgraded next year anyway).

 

Nope. We have roughly 50% of our software which after testing on vista will not work in Vista. about 80% of that is not updateable as the company no longer makes it or maintains it.

 

For example, the software made by Microsmile for maths is mostly 16bit - which simply won't work as there is no 16bit support in vista.

[torledo]

Maybe it's a wakeup call to ditch these legacy apps, or you could always run it in an xp vm under vista, although that seems like a bit too much work to get a 16-bit app to work.

 

It's not too clever using software with no telephone support or at the minimum software updates available on the net. I appreciate that even if you did upgrade these apps that you'd still have 30% of you're apps not Vista compatible, but will this still be the case 6 months from now after SP1 ? Maybe its time for a little bit of prodding of the software makers.

[SimpleSi]

Vista could be killed off if a big enough world campaign was started.

 

A small example of what has happened....

 

Fujitsu-Siemens sales people popped along to theirone of their re-sellers and said - good news - all machines will have Vista from now on.

 

Great said the reseller - we'll find another manufacturer - thanks for all the fish and bye bye!

 

Woah says FS people - whats the problem?

 

Well the problem is, our customers won't buy machines with Vista on so we'll have to go somewhere else.

 

Just hold on a bit while we think... mm ... how about we let people "downgrade" the machines to XP.

 

Will you support them if they do.

 

No.

 

Bye bye again!

 

Woah - hold on ... mm ... OK - we'll supply working drivers and we will support them and we'll automate the downgrade process so you just stick in a CD and 30 mins later it''ll be done.

 

Ok - look forward to continuing our relationship with you.

 

Relief on FS Sales peoples faces.

 

Now if this pattern is repeated often enough then maybe we'll see a change where the customer reigns over the supplier as opposed to the current situation.

 

Who knows?

 

regards

 

Simon

[torledo]

Vista could be killed off if a big enough world campaign was started.

 

A small example of what has happened....

 

Fujitsu-Siemens sales people popped along to theirone of their re-sellers and said - good news - all machines will have Vista from now on.

 

Great said the reseller - we'll find another manufacturer - thanks for all the fish and bye bye!

 

Woah says FS people - whats the problem?

 

Well the problem is, our customers won't buy machines with Vista on so we'll have to go somewhere else.

 

Just hold on a bit while we think... mm ... how about we let people "downgrade" the machines to XP.

 

Will you support them if they do.

 

No.

 

Bye bye again!

 

Woah - hold on ... mm ... OK - we'll supply working drivers and we will support them and we'll automate the downgrade process so you just stick in a CD and 30 mins later it''ll be done.

 

Ok - look forward to continuing our relationship with you.

 

Relief on FS Sales peoples faces.

 

Now if this pattern is repeated often enough then maybe we'll see a change where the customer reigns over the supplier as opposed to the current situation.

 

Who knows?

 

regards

 

Simon

 

I think that FSC example is what happened at all the big players, it certainly happened to lenovo, and probably to dell and hp...

 

so much so that it forced Microsoft to change their plans and extend XP availability beyond the SP3 release. And while i prefer XP over Vista at the moment XP even with SP3 is not good enough to take forward for the next 3 or 4 years until blackcomb. By that time it will be over 10 years old!!!!!

[CyberNerd]

1. Much of our existing educational software will not work properly in Vista, so much new software would have to be purchased if we updated

2. About 30% of our machines wouldn't work with Vista as the memory in them is too low.

3. If it is going to cost so much to roll out Vista, would it work out cheaper to migrate to Ubuntu and have a terminal server box for SIMS.net and the like?

 

At the moment, it is looking significantly cheaper to go with Ubuntu. The only problem would be training the staff for the new environment - although, this could easily be crafted to look a lot like Windows.

 

I'm thinking much the same here, lots of these old 16bit applications will run happily in Wine, crossoverOffice etc. Often they run better than in XP.

I don't see too much point in throwing the older apps away if teachers and students are still getting benefit from them but hopefully they will be re-written as (platform independent) web-apps in time.

Were in a slightly better situation with respect to Vista though because we migrated most of our desktops to thinclient linux already (running desktop windows from TS) and running published windows apps would be the next step. Have you looked at the Asus EEEPC interface? It runs as an application on any window manager (I've not looked into the licensing of this solution yet - but it is easily ported to any linux desktop/LTSP). It's extremely easy to use and customisable. I would say there would be less training issues in this type of linux interface than any ms/apple offering so far.

[Gatt]

We have started trials of TS - replacing PCs with Thin Clients

My PC at work is Vista, but I'm gonna revert to XP come the new year as there are still too many compatability problems with Hardware (Freecom DataTank being one example) and Software.

 

I don't plan to roll out Vista until I am pretty much forced to (when M$ stop the security updates for XP basically)

 

Vista is a nice home users OS but not for a business..

[localzuk]

Maybe it's a wakeup call to ditch these legacy apps, or you could always run it in an xp vm under vista, although that seems like a bit too much work to get a 16-bit app to work.

 

It's not too clever using software with no telephone support or at the minimum software updates available on the net. I appreciate that even if you did upgrade these apps that you'd still have 30% of you're apps not Vista compatible, but will this still be the case 6 months from now after SP1 ? Maybe its time for a little bit of prodding of the software makers.

 

Do you work in a school? Our school is a middle school with about 600 kids. Our budget isn't huge, so we can't afford to just 'ditch these legacy apps'. So all you've just confirmed is that to continue we will either need new apps or a different solution to run them.

 

And regarding telephone support - I would suggest that a significant number of our apps were bought more than 12 months ago, and as such most, if not all, of them would be outside any original support period.

 

We simply do not have the money to sustain high amounts of software purchasing or support.

 

Also, our teachers have built up their plans and lessons based on the software we have - replacing a large chunk of it would mean a complete new learning curve for them. Some of this software was purchased in the mid-late nineties, discarding what could be 10 years experience of a piece of software that does a job perfectly in favour of updating to a flashy new OS with a new piece of software seems like a poor decision from a school point of view.

 

Of course, from a technical point of view, I could simply say 'all the old apps will go - if you want replacements you had better get buying', but then that wouldn't be helping T&L much.

[Guest kerrymoralee9280]

Maybe it's a wakeup call to ditch these legacy apps, or you could always run it in an xp vm under vista, although that seems like a bit too much work to get a 16-bit app to work.

 

I would happily ditch all the legacy apps in school - but here's the catch.

 

Nobody has made software to replace most of them! Therefore you can't ditch them, you have to wait around for them to be reproduced.

[mac_shinobi]

Maybe it's a wakeup call to ditch these legacy apps, or you could always run it in an xp vm under vista, although that seems like a bit too much work to get a 16-bit app to work.

 

I would happily ditch all the legacy apps in school - but here's the catch.

 

Nobody has made software to replace most of them! Therefore you can't ditch them, you have to wait around for them to be reproduced.

 

what legacy apps are you reffering to , just out of curiousty ?

[Guest kerrymoralee9280]

Primary software such as Developing Number. There's a bunch load of the stuff, always has been in primary schools.

[Guest metalmonkey]

" Vista could be killed off if a big enough world campaign was started. "

 

This was tried when some VB coders tried to save the language structure in Visual Basic 6. VB.Net was too much of a change for some. (including me)

 

13,000 signed a petition, including 265 MVP's. Microsoft ignored it.

 

No boycott or campaign will stop Vista now, Microsoft have invested too much money to retreat.

[enjay]

Also, our teachers have built up their plans and lessons based on the software we have - replacing a large chunk of it would mean a complete new learning curve for them. Some of this software was purchased in the mid-late nineties, discarding what could be 10 years experience of a piece of software that does a job perfectly in favour of updating to a flashy new OS with a new piece of software seems like a poor decision from a school point of view.

Until quite recently, our MFL Department had some Acorn computers because of one application which a teacher loved and hadn't been able to replace on any newer format!

 

We have roughly 50% of our software which after testing on vista will not work in Vista. about 80% of that is not updateable as the company no longer makes it or maintains it.

That's unfortunate - it might be worth asking how much that software is genuinely used or how critical it is to have exactly that title though; we had a number of "essential" Win98 apps which I failed to get onto XP and when offered older computers with these apps or newer ones without, the teachers all said "oh well" and migrated.

[mac_shinobi]

" Vista could be killed off if a big enough world campaign was started. "

 

This was tried when some VB coders tried to save the language structure in Visual Basic 6. VB.Net was too much of a change for some. (including me)

 

13,000 signed a petition, including 265 MVP's. Microsoft ignored it.

 

No boycott or campaign will stop Vista now, Microsoft have invested too much money to retreat.

 

I was one of them who signed that petition, I do agree that vb 6 is a bit out dated considering it is not OO but I still enjoy using it.

 

Vista - lets just not go there. Regardless of how much they spent on it, not like it makes the OS better, at least not where Vista is concerned.

 

I mean how many versions of one operating system do you need ?

[Guest metalmonkey]

I do agree that vb 6 is a bit out dated considering it is not OO but I still enjoy using it.

 

Absolutely. VB6 is an enjoyable language. If people want multithreading, or inheritance, or true OO, then they need to use C or something similar. Long gone are the days when Basic had Beginners in the name. I think it's should be "Bloody Akward Symbolic Instruction Code" .Net.

 

(Sorry, diverging there a little)

 

I mean how many versions of one operating system do you need ?

 

Couldn't agree more. I think they deliberately did this to confuse people. It's completely illogical.

[SimpleSi]

No boycott or campaign will stop Vista now, Microsoft have invested too much money to retreat.

 

WinME never got stopped - it was just ignored by professionals

 

If all Edugeekers with the power to do so say no to Vista and all company NMs do the same - you think MS will pull the plug on XP support - I think not

 

If the manufactures realise that no-one buys kit that doesn't work on XP - they'll make kit that works on XP.

 

In these circumstances, I think a&^%s back in MS Land, will be be kicked hard and Vista Mk2 would appear PDQ.

 

 

MS is big- its huge - its powerful - but its not God.

 

regards

Simon

 

PS Let's all just do what our great leader has done - be assertive and just say NO - long live DB - long live the revolution - it starts here and now!

 

PPS I just showed one of my heads how to "downgrade" his 3 month old Vista machine to XP - he says its like getting an extra Christmas present

 

PPPS Anyway, I only moved from Win200 on my machine 6 months ago so I'm doing my bit to slow progress

 

PPPPS All this written while waiting for last nights alcohol to wear off before I can go out driving and do some Christmas Shopping (Is it 1/2pint per hour????)