Fresh start....

[gsk]

Hi All,

 

I was hoping to gather some thoughts about what you guys would do if you were starting fresh with your server, AD, network admin software etc, based on the good and bad things that you've come up against over the years.

 

I was hoping we could have a bit of fun without it turning into a CC4 v Vanilla or Virtual v Physical bunfight, so please feel free to say what YOU would do rather than what everyone else SHOULD do.

 

The Scenario:

 

You are running a small network of around 100 PCs, Single Site, Layer 3 1Gbit Core Switch, 5 x 24 port Gbit layer 2 Managed switches.

 

You have £5k to spend on a new server. What would your hardware and management software spec be?

 

Regards,

[scotyboy56]

I put a new server in one of my Primary schools over the summer holidays last year, and they have roughly the same setup as you tbh, and the server was speced for future proof. So it will last the 5 years until a replacement is in need, and it cost around 3K I think. Can't remember the specs, but if you drop me a PM if you want to know I am there tomorrow afternoon so can let you know, or could probably hunt out the order form and tell you the price etc.

I just went for a standard server 2012R2 (no virtualization) Running everything I need, DNS,DHCP, AD, WSUS, Group Policy, Print server, File server (Probably missed some things off that) and just used the old server as my backup server as it already had the tape drive in it and installed helpdesk on it, also use it as my WDS just because it was already setup on it. Was nice and easy to setup, and have had no issues with my setup and can't see anything the school may do in the future that will cause havoc or make me think I made a mistake

 

I would like to add that I started completely fresh, didn't import any users or computer or anything from the old server. I setup everything from scratch (old server had CC3 on it) and was the best decision I ever made as I could set it up to how I liked and it is all organised now rather than taking over from a different tech, who did things a weird way (in my opinion).

Edited March 26, 2015 by scotyboy56

[dry]

I would like to add that I started completely fresh, didn't import any users or computer or anything from the old server. I setup everything from scratch (old server had CC3 on it) and was the best decision I ever made as I could set it up to how I liked and it is all organised now rather than taking over from a different tech, who did things a weird way (in my opinion).

 

Presumably you migrated user data and contents of shared drives etc over? How did you manage the obscure, clunky software that is notorious in primary schools?

 

I'd love to do what you've done in my place (but I'd definately virtualise!) although almost every day it seems I find a random bit of outdated software that is "vital" for teaching staff to have that's installed on our server and used via RDS.

[scotyboy56]

Presumably you migrated user data and contents of shared drives etc over? How did you manage the obscure, clunky software that is notorious in primary schools?

 

I'd love to do what you've done in my place (but I'd definately virtualise!) although almost every day it seems I find a random bit of outdated software that is "vital" for teaching staff to have that's installed on our server and used via RDS.

 

Oh ye sorry migrated shared drives etc across. But then re created all users and migrated there documents to new usernames etc. Thankfully at the time I was doing it the ICT Co-ordinator that was at the school was months away from maternity leave. She was fed up with useless rubbish software no one uses so gave me a list of stuff to put on, thankfully majority of it was MSI installs, but the school has two different models of computers (was a new build 2010) so just made up one with all software and drivers for each model and cloned them and pushed that image out to all the machines.

 

Why virtualise, I don't get why you would as surely you have to buy another licence and more CALs for that virtual server? Also if you are in a middle size primary school what's the benefit? Not me having a go I just genuinely want to know as I don't get the benefit.

 

But definatley start from scratch if that's what you want to do as you will have a much easier time managing the network as the server is yours then and you know what is supposed to go where etc.

 

With the software go to the ICT Co-Ordinator (aslong as they are a nice friendly person) before you do the install of new server and ask them to give you a list of all software staff want, they will come back with a list that has about 50% or less of software installed go with that, and nothing else.

[LiamH]

Presumably you migrated user data and contents of shared drives etc over? How did you manage the obscure, clunky software that is notorious in primary schools?

 

I'd love to do what you've done in my place (but I'd definately virtualise!) although almost every day it seems I find a random bit of outdated software that is "vital" for teaching staff to have that's installed on our server and used via RDS.

 

That is always the case with old outdated software, when we upgraded to windows 7 many moons ago we sent out a request for "critical software", yet we still had people coming in 3 years after asking why xyz was no longer installed. (clearly not missed much!)

 

We* have a responsibility to make sure the networking environment is as up to date as possible, old software with known vulnerabilities can lead to a bad bag of worms, pitch it as a security / data protection issue if people kick up too much of a fuss about ancient software that will only run on older OS's .

 

* We as in IT staff responsible for the networks security

[scotyboy56]

That is always the case with old outdated software, when we upgraded to windows 7 many moons ago we sent out a request for "critical software", yet we still had people coming in 3 years after asking why xyz was no longer installed. (clearly not missed much!)

 

We* have a responsibility to make sure the networking environment is as up to date as possible, old software with known vulnerabilities can lead to a bad bag of worms, pitch it as a security / data protection issue if people kick up too much of a fuss about ancient software that will only run on older OS's .

 

* We as in IT staff responsible for the networks security

 

I know it's bad of me to say this, but I used to say "sorry it's not compatible with our system any more because it is so outdated*". They didn't complain and just said that's a shame and carried on, so it obviously isn't important, just they can't put the kids onto that program to keep them quite for 5 minutes any more.

 

 

* The software not our system!

[Quackers]

Why virtualise, I don't get why you would as surely you have to buy another licence and more CALs for that virtual server? Also if you are in a middle size primary school what's the benefit? Not me having a go I just genuinely want to know as I don't get the benefit.

 

 

 

If you buy Windows Server Datacenter edition which is only like £50 on ESS you can run as many Windows Virtual Machines as you want under that licence on that hardware, i think Enterprise allows 8 VM's and Standard its 4 (might be 4 and 2) i would have to reread up on that.

 

Advantage of being able to take a snapshot before doing a major change, and simply revert if it goes wrong, and you can transfer the server from one physical server to another with ease.

[Sephiroth]

As far as hardware goes, I'd do exactly what I did just over a year ago (albeit in a secondary school with 2500 users and 1000 computers)... rebuild from scratch as a vanilla network. £5K should go well towards some reasonable spec servers for the network size, preferably 4; 2 VM hosts for HA; 1 physical DC and a storage server.

 

For a setup of that size, I would go with 2 hosts with 2 quad core/8 thread CPUs and 16GB RAM with 2 SAS disks for OS in RAID 1 (onboard RAID if necessary), a storage server with at least dual core CPU and 2GB per TB storage that is needed and enough disks to give ~150% of the current data capacity for future-proofing + 100GB per VM that would be needed (you should never need that much, but again, will allow for more VMs whenever needed). The DC can be anything that will run Server 2012R2. If you go with Server Core install, that would be something like a dual core CPU with 1GB RAM, and an 80GB HDD, but whatever is cheapest.

 

If I could squeeze VMWare Essentials into the budget at ~£500 I would... otherwise I'd go XenServer. Personally don't like HyperV.

 

As far as network admin software goes, I've been developing Nagios/Icinga for a while to fit my needs for monitoring core services and make use of a helpdesk. Given the choice on the latter, I would have gone with GLPI, But I was overruled. Plus anything currently in use.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Sephiroth

[scotyboy56]

If you buy Windows Server Datacenter edition which is only like £50 on ESS you can run as many Windows Virtual Machines as you want under that licence on that hardware, i think Enterprise allows 8 VM's and Standard its 4 (might be 4 and 2) i would have to reread up on that.

 

Advantage of being able to take a snapshot before doing a major change, and simply revert if it goes wrong, and you can transfer the server from one physical server to another with ease.

 

That makes sense now Thanks

[mjk]

 

I was hoping we could have a bit of fun without it turning into a CC4 v Vanilla or Virtual v Physical bunfight, so please feel free to say what YOU would do rather than what everyone else SHOULD do.

 

 

I would throw it all out and replace it all with chromebooks. Perhaps with a SIMS/RDP in the cloud somewhere if I absolutely had to.

[scotyboy56]

I would throw it all out and replace it all with MACBOOKS if I absolutely had to.

 

I've fixed that for you

[dry]

Oh ye sorry migrated shared drives etc across. But then re created all users and migrated there documents to new usernames etc. Thankfully at the time I was doing it the ICT Co-ordinator that was at the school was months away from maternity leave. She was fed up with useless rubbish software no one uses so gave me a list of stuff to put on, thankfully majority of it was MSI installs, but the school has two different models of computers (was a new build 2010) so just made up one with all software and drivers for each model and cloned them and pushed that image out to all the machines.

 

Cool, that's the way I'd do it too. I wish we had fewer different models of device- it seems things were bought ad-hoc whenever there was cash. Selection criteria seems to have consisted of 'whatever is shiniest'....

 

Why virtualise, I don't get why you would as surely you have to buy another licence and more CALs for that virtual server? Also if you are in a middle size primary school what's the benefit? Not me having a go I just genuinely want to know as I don't get the benefit.

 

It saves having one instance of Server 2012 doing too much. Currently the one instance is doing pretty much every role imaginable, so whenever I want to do something, I always have to be cautious of whether I'm going to break something else. Nothing's documented here too.

 

If we virtualise, it means we can restart just the Print Server VM, for example, instead of bringing down the entire server because of some silly little printing issue. It also means things like Xibo (for digital signage) that I'm about to set up can be run and managed more independently of the rest of the server.

 

 

But definatley start from scratch if that's what you want to do as you will have a much easier time managing the network as the server is yours then and you know what is supposed to go where etc.

 

With the software go to the ICT Co-Ordinator (aslong as they are a nice friendly person) before you do the install of new server and ask them to give you a list of all software staff want, they will come back with a list that has about 50% or less of software installed go with that, and nothing else.

 

Good shout about this. I'm sure a lot of the software currently installed either isn't used at all or there's alternative free software that can do a better job.

[Ephelyon]

I'd get two decent refurb boxes from @ICTDirect_Dave and virtualise with Hyper-V.

 

E.g. HP SE316M1 G6 with 2 x hexacore X5650, 48GB RAM and 8 x 146GB SAS disks. That gives 12 cores and 1TB storage per host (in RAID5) and comes out at £800 each.

 

Set up Hyper-V Replica from the primary to the secondary host. VMs on the primary host:

 

* DC/DNS/DHCP - 1 core / 4GB RAM

* File - 1 core / 4GB RAM

* Print - 1 core / 4GB RAM

* MIS - variable, ours has 4 cores and 16GB RAM but you're unlikely to need that

* Web if needed - variable depending on services hosted

* Mail if needed - variable depending on e-mail solution

* Misc if needed - for things like WDS, KMS, any random educational software wanting a server component, e.g. Sibelius licensing server... say 2 cores / 8GB RAM

 

You've got cores and RAM to spare there, for future expansion. VMs on the secondary host:

 

* Remote Access server (RDS) - say 8 cores / 32GB RAM during normal use

* Sandbox VMs from the primary host

 

Set up Hyper-V Replica from the primary to the secondary host, running every 15 minutes. The secondary host should ideally be in a different building or on the other side of the site, with a decent connection back to the core/server switches. That gives you redundancy in the event of losing the server room / a building, plus very decent speed of remote access for staff (if you don't already have that). The idea is that the secondary host isn't doing anything most of the time, so most of its resources can be used to run the remote access server, with the rest allowing for a bit of a sandbox environment for testing e.g. software upgrades on the primary VMs (suspending replication while doing so).

 

All for £1,600! Before licensing, that is... so you'd be looking at maybe 4 x Windows Server 2012 R2 Standard licenses to cover up to 8 VMs with the above setup (replicas don't need licensing as long as you have Software Assurance). Check with your EES supplier for details on that.

 

With all the extra financial room you have, I'd then start investigating options for a backup server running e.g. Veeam. We use a reverse-incremental disk-to-disk strategy stretching back up to a year to complement the on-site replicas (and off-site replicas in our case, but that's going a bit far at this stage).

[scotyboy56]

Cool, that's the way I'd do it too. I wish we had fewer different models of device- it seems things were bought ad-hoc whenever there was cash. Selection criteria seems to have consisted of 'whatever is shiniest'....

 

 

 

It saves having one instance of Server 2012 doing too much. Currently the one instance is doing pretty much every role imaginable, so whenever I want to do something, I always have to be cautious of whether I'm going to break something else. Nothing's documented here too.

 

If we virtualise, it means we can restart just the Print Server VM, for example, instead of bringing down the entire server because of some silly little printing issue. It also means things like Xibo (for digital signage) that I'm about to set up can be run and managed more independently of the rest of the server.

 

 

 

 

Good shout about this. I'm sure a lot of the software currently installed either isn't used at all or there's alternative free software that can do a better job.

 

Oh trust me it's not a good way of doing it, the original model are coming up to 5 years of lifetime and with the kids the school has they are starting to show there age very quickly, and the school can't afford to replace over 60 desktops. Short term it's great for setting up, long term I will have to be doing a lot of CPR on the machines.

 

 

That seems like a smart way of doing it tbh, regret not doing it this way now, but oh well I have learnt for next server

 

Or just don't find anything as no one will complain for 3 years, then you can say it hasn't been there for 3 years and now you moan? Nope sorry I binned it after 2 years, it's a new policy.

[ICTDirect_Dave]

I'd get two decent refurb boxes from @ICTDirect_Dave and virtualise with Hyper-V.

 

E.g. HP SE316M1 G6 with 2 x hexacore X5650, 48GB RAM and 8 x 146GB SAS disks. That gives 12 cores and 1TB storage per host (in RAID5) and comes out at £800 each.

 

Set up Hyper-V Replica from the primary to the secondary host. VMs on the primary host:

 

* DC/DNS/DHCP - 1 core / 4GB RAM

* File - 1 core / 4GB RAM

* Print - 1 core / 4GB RAM

* MIS - variable, ours has 4 cores and 16GB RAM but you're unlikely to need that

* Web if needed - variable depending on services hosted

* Mail if needed - variable depending on e-mail solution

* Misc if needed - for things like WDS, KMS, any random educational software wanting a server component, e.g. Sibelius licensing server... say 2 cores / 8GB RAM

 

You've got cores and RAM to spare there, for future expansion. VMs on the secondary host:

 

* Remote Access server (RDS) - say 8 cores / 32GB RAM during normal use

* Sandbox VMs from the primary host

 

Set up Hyper-V Replica from the primary to the secondary host, running every 15 minutes. The secondary host should ideally be in a different building or on the other side of the site, with a decent connection back to the core/server switches. That gives you redundancy in the event of losing the server room / a building, plus very decent speed of remote access for staff (if you don't already have that). The idea is that the secondary host isn't doing anything most of the time, so most of its resources can be used to run the remote access server, with the rest allowing for a bit of a sandbox environment for testing e.g. software upgrades on the primary VMs (suspending replication while doing so).

 

All for £1,600! Before licensing, that is... so you'd be looking at maybe 4 x Windows Server 2012 R2 Standard licenses to cover up to 8 VMs with the above setup (replicas don't need licensing as long as you have Software Assurance). Check with your EES supplier for details on that.

 

With all the extra financial room you have, I'd then start investigating options for a backup server running e.g. Veeam. We use a reverse-incremental disk-to-disk strategy stretching back up to a year to complement the on-site replicas (and off-site replicas in our case, but that's going a bit far at this stage).

 

 

Do you fancy a job?

@Ephelyon basically did my sales pitch for me here! However I will add that the extra storage afforded by 300GB SAS drives might be preferable. I do of course have these as well.

 

If you'd like to look at some options, just give me a call or a PM and I'll be happy to help!

[ict-direct]

Also, there is a 2 year warranty on all ICT Direct servers.

 

Thanks @Ephelyon

[gsk]

I've seen mixed messages about fully virtual systems. Could you for instance buy a well spec'd server with as much fast storage, ram and CPU power as you could afford, run a hyper-v host and have every virtual including DCs, AD, DNS, DHCP etc on separate servers?

 

I have been looking at a spec along the lines of 2x Xeon 2620 V3's(6c 12t), 3 x 1.2tb 10K SAS in RAID 5, 32GB DDR4 RAM.

@ict-direct - what warranty do you offer on refurb kit?

Edited March 26, 2015 by gsk

[ICTDirect_Dave]

I've seen mixed messages about fully virtual systems. Could you for instance buy a well spec'd server with as much fast storage, ram and CPU power as you could afford, run a hyper-v host and have every virtual including DCs, AD, DNS, DHCP etc on separate servers?

 

I have been looking at a spec along the lines of 2x Xeon 2620 V3's(6c 12t), 3 x 1.2tb 10K SAS in RAID 5, 32GB DDR4 RAM.

@ict-direct - what warranty do you offer on refurb kit?

 

All our server's come with a standard 2 year warranty. We try and turn around all problems within 24 hours. Though I'll be honest I think in two years I've really only had to swap a couple of HDDs and a faulty stick of ram.

 

We can also look at expanding these warranties to three years or more through some of our partners who can provide onsite support for an additional fee.

[Ephelyon]

@ICTDirect_Dave, to be honest, the way the budget's going over here, I might be tempted...

 

Would it be possible to get more of your components inventory on the website then? It only shows the 72GB and 146GB options, so I wasn't able to get a realistic idea of pricing from the site alone (which would be handy).

[ICTDirect_Dave]

Yeah, the way our site is currently designed it's a massive job to add component options to products with a massive rang of parts.

 

We're rebuilding the site at the moment so you'll be able to start off each product with a bare chassis and build in every component from the ground up.

 

It'll have realtime stock levels too

[Ephelyon]

Very nice Is there an ETA on that?

[ICTDirect_Dave]

Will be a couple of months yet. We're still at the design stage.

 

Once we've done that I'll have to go through and make bundle products of all our current range which should take a few weeks, but by the time we've done and with my Magento level much higher than it was when I did the current iteration of the site, it should be a much nicer user experience and faster to boot!