vle's mis integration

[plexer]

I keep getting told that in order to progress with a VLE then it has to integrate with a schools mis so there isn't duplication of data.

 

Seems to me though that we have to do imports and exports for things like exam entries, and the yearl exam results download which is then imported into the mis so why does the vle have to have this integration?

 

Ben

[russdev]

Realtime assigment data, timetable, real time student behaviour detilas, cover, student timetables, free rooms...

 

To name a few things..

 

Russell

[Geoff]

Told by who?

[ninjabeaver]

Yeah, Plexer is right. I had a training day at Smithdon High School in regards to SharePoint 2007 which county is keen to roll out to our schools in Norfolk, and the trainer said the same. Integration with SIMS seemed to be the order of the day, until everyone shouted that we use various MIS, like Bromcom, Phoenix etc.

[CyberNerd]

It is pretty handy to have VLE integrated with MIS, our moodle pulls all the course info from SIMS (extra fields were added to sims to make this happen and we contact the database directly using freetds). Ideally authentication should also be handled by the MIS, I was thinking that if the backend of SIMS was used as a db for Samba.........

[plexer]

Hey Simon,

 

Did you stay until the end of the day then? I left after lunch there was no point in staying as far as I could see.

 

The sharepoint vle we were being shown allows for document collaboration and not a lot else.

 

Strange though as after that I've been in contact with county and they are supposed to be providing Phoenix E1 integration but I'm not filled with confidence.

 

All of those realtime things will be covered by E1 and not needed for the VLE as far as I can see the VLE is there to disribute lesson plans, documents, images, audio, video and allow for testing of the understanding of topics.

 

That testing info can then presumably be exported and then imported into whatever mis is being used and I see as no different to importing exam results, alan testing results etc...

[russdev]

This goes back to thing of we are not talking vle that is one small part it is managed learning enviroment and that includes everything from vles to mis systems.

 

Most vle pproviders have some system in place or about to have some system in place.

 

Russell

[plexer]

Surely there can't be a one stop single box solution to all these needs though?

 

Ben

[GrumbleDook]

A quick heads up to the possible future directions of VLE / MIS / IDP integration.

 

The ideal is that each RBC (or LA if you are not within an RBC) is the Regional IDP (Identity Provider) and you have SSO / federation with 3rd parties (eg the VLEs) for authentication ... you then also have LAN level login to the regional IDP via a few different methods.

 

The RBC also host / control the ZIS (Zone Integration Server) which will allows SIF agents to connect for data interchange. Each MIS provider is working on, has, or is rebuilding SIF agents.

 

There have been a number of flaws with this ... the standards used, the timelines suggested (or demanded) and the ownership of data.

 

The MIS used should, in the end, make no difference at all ... but big players are doing things in their own way ... still ... but this is a massive area of discussion and will be for some time, even after we have some good practice out there.

[Innermumbo]

Some interesting points here...

 

Norfolk is a member of UK SIFa and the SIF standard for data interoperability is a requirement for the key MIS supplier as well as learning platform / vle suppliers.

 

All major MIS suppliers are signed-up to UK SIFa.

 

An Identity Provider (IDP) is already in place and will be 'Shibboleth enabled'. Again, Shibboleth Service Provider is a requirement for suppliers. SIF will replace the existing and partially manual data transfer mechanism for the IDP via the Zone Integration Server (ZIS). It is my understanding that Norfolk are ahead in the region on both fronts. Indeed, the Norfolk UK SIFa rep was part of the SIF data working sub-group for Identity Management. It is clear that SIF and Shibboleth sit well together here in this context.

 

A few outcomes for both technologies will include:

- reduced administration (including input of the same piece of data more than once across learning and administrative systems);

- improved performance tracking eg assessment data captured in multiple VLEs is available via the MIS for reporting in near real-time;

- improved quality of data / information;

- improved security in terms of access to systems and data movement;

- Single sign-on;

- Schools able to collaborate effectively

 

Finally, whilst the UK SIF data model is in its infancy, it is progressing relatively quickly and my current understanding is that Assessment, Attendance and Identity Management will be part of the next release. It is feasible to include additional 'bespoke' datasets so long as it is recognised that these will need to be 'migrated' as the UK standard matures. I believe that this is how the Birmingham pilot overcame some issues.

 

Norfolk's technical strategy regarding secondary

Learning Platforms / MLEs is on the agenda for the Network Managers Workshop early next year.

 

Useful links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBHiASr-pwk&feature=related

http://www.eficts.norfolk.gov.uk/transformation

http://uk.sifinfo.org/

[plexer]

Hi there,

 

Nice first post, maybe you'd like to identify yourself privately to me if you'd rather as I'm intrigued.

 

Ben

[Innermumbo]

Hi Ben and thanks!

[djm968]

I hear a lot of talk about VLE and MIS integration and cannot understand why more Schools do not consider using a Terminal Server for remote access to the School.

 

Installed and configured correctly, a terminal server can provide access to the VLE, MIS user documents, shared documents, most programs, IP CCTV and anything else you have running on the School LAN.... even most leading accounts software.

 

One NM I did an install for recently said it has transformed the way most staff work.

 

He can logon to the TS from home and deploy a package via GPO ready for the next morning, the staff can access the SIM.Net MIS from home and the head can even check the schools IP CCTV cameras from home.

[Innermumbo]

Not sure that this is a solution to interoperability... Data interoperability between the school MIS and other learning services such as VLEs is, put crudely, about entering data once and the data being 'shared' across services. An example might be that I enter / update a teacher record in the MIS and the relevant parts of this dataset required by the learning service is updated without manual intervention eg CSV export / import. A Zone Integration Server (ZIS) acts as a kind of sorting office - a hub at the centre of all learning and administrative services. My understanding of the Building Schools for the Future (BSF) strategy, is that services should be managed and hosted to better enable such things as anytime, anywhere learning, extended schools and collaborative teaching and learning.

[plexer]

See it's this lets host everything externally thing that really gets on my nerves.

 

Why not give the schools the power to be able to host things themselves and provide this anytime anywhere service to their uses, but no we can't be trusted by the lea to be able to look after anything like that.

 

Bloody nanny state.

 

Ben

[crispinw]

This is one of the problems that SALTIS (The Suppliers' Association for Learning Technology and interoperability in Schools) has just been set up to tackle.

 

There are some notes on our student records project at http://www.saltis.org/project-records.htm .

 

SIF is one route forwards, IMS Enterprise is the other. SIF is in some ways more ambitious because it requires a hub (or ZIS), which manages all data transfers. But if you don't have a hub, it won't work - the UK project has only just started its pilot and there is no way of knowing how comprehensive coverage of ZISs will be.

 

The industry also has concerns about the charging structure for SIF (you pay for the ZIS and then pay again to connect to the ZIS) - ownership of the hub brings a great deal of control and this affects the relationship between Local Authorities and schools as well as relationships within the industry.

 

IMS Enterprise uses bilateral web-services, so you would register an MIS with a LP and vice versa and they get on with it talking directly to each other. Easier and ready now - but ultimately not so scalable.

 

I see a need for both systems - but I suspect that IMS Enterprise has advantages in the short term.

 

Crispin Weston

[Innermumbo]

Ben, this is central government strategy via Becta and Partnership for Schools. Government funding for much of this stuff, including BSF as I understand it, is based upon meeting these requirements. The LA (technical) role is to ensure that the technology is 'best of breed', meets legal requirements for data and child protection, provides the best possible opportunity for our children, etc., etc.

 

It would be good if you could raise specific concerns that you have (at Network Managers forums, etc.), so that these can be fully understood and addressed.

 

Hope this clarifies a few things.

 

Useful links:

http://www.bsf.gov.uk/

http://www.p4s.org.uk/

[djm968]

Perhaps someone at a LA can answer this question for me. Are VLE's just IWB and Projectors in disguise?

[Innermumbo]

VLEs explained:

http://home.ched.coventry.ac.uk/course/vlepg2.html

http://www.schoolforge.org.uk/index.php/VirtualLearningEnvironments

[djm968]

An IWB and projector combination is...... One of these

 

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/884922/2/istockphoto_884922_waste_of_money.jpg

[Innermumbo]

This is one of the problems that SALTIS (The Suppliers' Association for Learning Technology and interoperability in Schools) has just been set up to tackle.There are some notes on our student records project at http://www.saltis.org/project-records.htm

 

Crispin - this is interesting and useful stuff... Is the supplier representation a significant cross section?

[djm968]

pop....... there goes another projector bulb!

[crispinw]

Thanks for your interest Innermumbo,

 

We have 29 commerical members and 5 non-commercial partners. Have a look at our members list at http://www.saltis.org/members.htm (one member not on the page yet).

 

There was an initial meeting at the end of July and the group was formed at a second meeting at the end of October. But I have only just started telling people about it and the formal launch will be at BETT.

 

Membership is free - thanks to BESA for supporting this. Full members must be commercial suppliers, partners are other organisations - academic, government, associations or consultants - which the members think can help us in our objectives. Applications for membership and partnership now have to be approved at the next meeting, in early February.

 

But I am keen that others should also feed in their opinions. If SALTIS is to achieve effective interoperabilty (which would solve many of the problems which exercise people on this forum), then we will need a mandate from the wider practitioner community.

 

Crispin.

[plexer]

Innermumbo: I do make my voice heard however it still seems as if the techs in norfolk are never fully involved or consulted on anything.

 

Ben

[crispinw]

I entirely agree with your frustrations Ben.

 

It may be central government strategy to procure everything centrally - but that doesn't mean that it the right strategy.

 

Aren't the people who use the stuff in the best position to decide what's 'best of breed' and what's best for the children in their school?

 

As for standards issues around data and child protection (and interoperability), wouldn't it make more sense to kite-mark products against exact technical specifications and then allow end-users to buy what they like, rather than have 400 local authorites all running expensive procurements, all going through exactly the same diligence procedures?