Northgate questions

[torledo]

As someone who has been in and around a few 'modern' buildings in the last 18 months I would like to point out that some work .. and Norman Foster's stuff is not that bad.

 

It boils down to the same issue with all PFI and BSF work ... they have to know from the word go what the school wants ...

 

I recently looked at the amended drawings of a build that went up 2 years ago. Learning from the mistakes that were made and after some improvements were added, the architects then took it to the school who crossed a heap of the improvements and questioned why they were needed.

 

Builders suffer from the exact same issue as we do when planning. If they don't get the job spec given to them they can't invent it as they go along ...

 

The sub-contractors may look as if they do, and the numbers of corners cut also give this impression, but they do tend to work to the design given.

 

The best one has to have been a logistics group that wanted a new wing on their central office ... this had to be based on the ideology of the company, the future expansion plans, incorporate additional essential services (creche, gym, cinema^Wpresentation area, grub house^W^Wmulti-function eating area and some R & R space).

 

Eventually they worked out it was easy just to get a frame built with glass on 3 sides, a mezzanine floor and put up partition walls that could be moved around. A change of decor is done with different artwork or propoganda^Wpromotional materials, all the services are run under a floating floor or via ceiling voids ... and they saved $10m ... which went as a bonus to the employees.

 

Apparently, money is a better motivating factor then whether you are eating your pickled herring and watercress ciabatta next to a virtual wooded glade whilst larks sing Handel's Messiah.

 

i think rebuild of a school under BSF should be a last resort. From what I understand it's up to each authority how they carry out the BSF spend...whether that's refurb or rebuild. I think a lot of schools, particularly those that are aesthetically pleasing are merely in need of refurbishment. There are many schools that need tearing down, as refurb is money down a bottomless pit.

 

But a lot of BSF appears to be sledgehammer to crack a nut. A kind of one size all approach that seems to lack flexibility.

 

I'm reminded of a channel 4 programme a couple of years ago, where that frightfully nice chap from Grand Designs hosted a show about Britains most hideous buildings as voted by joe and jane public. One of the approaches was to see if, actually, these weren't awful eyesores in need of tearing down but much misunderstood iconic buildings of their era....and that could be transformed into something more appealing with a tin of paint and the help of an imaginative architect. A lot of the buldings could be repurposed and redesigned without demolision.

 

Now it goes without saying we love our victorian and edwardian built schools (and public baths for that matter) but i'm sure there a lot of schools from the more recent decades that are pearls covered in shit. Basically, you could show jane public a picture of their local school and they might say it was an awful construction, a brain fart of the ___insert decade here____.......

 

But show them the same school with a little bit of external tinkering and she could easily be convinced otherwise. Same goes for the internals of the school. These schools may have small corridors and are a little worse for wear and in general they actually look like schools as we know and love/hate them due to the years of underfunding but they have more character than a lot of new builds. And it'd be cheaper to do. I actually like modern, and modern design that has thought about space in an unusual and innovative way. But the current modern buildings have no consideration for their surroundings and are overall bad interpretations of modern.

[Grommit]

As someone who has been in and around a few 'modern' buildings in the last 18 months I would like to point out that some work .. and Norman Foster's stuff is not that bad.

 

It boils down to the same issue with all PFI and BSF work ... they have to know from the word go what the school wants ...

 

I recently looked at the amended drawings of a build that went up 2 years ago. Learning from the mistakes that were made and after some improvements were added, the architects then took it to the school who crossed a heap of the improvements and questioned why they were needed.

 

Builders suffer from the exact same issue as we do when planning. If they don't get the job spec given to them they can't invent it as they go along ...

 

The sub-contractors may look as if they do, and the numbers of corners cut also give this impression, but they do tend to work to the design given.

 

 

we also has some experiences in our build..

 

When standing in a partly built shell.. one gets the feel of the building that Teaching/Support staff don't get from the plans.

 

you can then feel the flow, vibe and usage of the area..

 

But when you try to move a door 2m to the right to alleviate a bottleneck say the builders inform you that they have no design input and they will only build what is on the plans.. not a screw more or a screw less.. and they are cannot stop the build as it will cause delay and impact on the other phases..

 

Then starts the arduous task of trying to move the door..

 

One you have danced the dance it's too late anyway because the builders have finished the phase and you have the door (or whatever) in the wrong place.. heh heh

[GrumbleDook]

One you have danced the dance it's too late anyway because the builders have finished the phase and you have the door (or whatever) in the wrong place.. heh heh

 

Yep ... the chat I had with this particular group of architects was an eye opener, even for someone who has worked on building sites (security guard, hoddy, chippy's mate, general labourer) it was funny to hear them say the 3 biggest problems in public sector builds are fit for purpose designs, timescales and money.

 

You can have any 2 of the 3 sorted the way you want, but not all 3. (hmm ... Section 7a of RFC1925 springs to mind here!)

[Face-Man]

As this thread has now got on to the wonders of modern schools and the joys of old edwardian buildings we should not forget what schools are for ie learning (not for containing young people to stop them getting locked up somewhere a bit more expensive with a 24/7 service honest ...). Part of the reason for BSF was the idea that the 21 century brings challenges to the traditional form of education and if teachers think their Job is full of change they have not seen anything yet. Put children in groups of thirty with one teacher who inparts the wonders of the periodic table, calculus and 1066 is 19th century learning. After all most students learn more useful about computers from using them in their own time than they ever do at school.

The problem with all these wonderful ideals of modernising is when the bottom line comes in and it is realised that they can be achieved at a price that is affordable and compromise is made often to such an extent that all you do is a patch up job....

[broc]

As an ex-Chair of Governors for a Wave 1 BSF Secondary School, I sat through the early 'blue sky' BSF visions and watched them get slowly crushed....

 

We had the 'visionary' stage, where staff and governors were told to think 'outside of the box'; don't be constrained in your thinking by space, classrooms,cost, timetables; say what you need and convince us how this would make education better..... Great!

 

Then we had the 'hang on a bit'.... we only have £xxx million pounds available, and that has to cover all of the consultant costs, and the cost of temporary accomodation etc etc so maybe we had better stick to BB98.... and by the way as you have falling rolls we will size your school based upon the rolls you will have when it is due to open, ignoring the fact that the rolls are due to increase shortly afterwards....

 

Then we had the 'Oh dear... this isn't going to fit in the budget is it?' stage, where ideas such as 'extend the school day, so not all students are onsite at the same time then we can build a smaller school....' were suggested, finally we got to cutting out/down on corridors, and staff workspaces, and staffrooms, and no space for technicians or covered areas for students so they would not have to be turfed out at break & lunchtime when raining.....

 

The final straw was being pressured into signing up unconditionally to the idea that ICT and other site services should be outsourced without any backout clause, even though nobody could say what we were signing up to.

 

I resigned. I had enough.

[localzuk]

The problem with all these wonderful ideals of modernising is when the bottom line comes in and it is realised that they can be achieved at a price that is affordable and compromise is made often to such an extent that all you do is a patch up job....

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head right there. The intentions are good, but there isn't enough money being put forward for it. If the budget, which I am seeing is £40bn for ever school, and there are roughly 4000 secondary schools, that works out at, what, £10m per school? For rebuilding/refurbishing every school, that is not much really.

[Joanne]

you can't get much equipment for that money these days! have you seen how much desks and chairs cost? it's scandelous!

[broc]

Figures I have seen suggest refurb is around £12-14m, rebuild is £19-22m, unless you are an Academy where it can be £22-26m+ especially if you get gold-plated taps in the HTs en-suite

 

I believe ICT spending is on top of these figures. I guess there will be regional variations, and of course when the London Olympics building projects really get under way there will be a national shortage of skilled construction workers.........

[torledo]

As this thread has now got on to the wonders of modern schools and the joys of old edwardian buildings we should not forget what schools are for ie learning (not for containing young people to stop them getting locked up somewhere a bit more expensive with a 24/7 service honest ...). ....

 

Really ? I would argue that schools are equal measure learning and keeping kids off the street or watching daytime telly. Middle england realised a long time ago that if you really want you're kids to learn and get on without the distractions send them to private school - that's if they don't get a place in the local grammar school. Billions dound the toilet - sorry, investment - in comprehensive schooling isn't going to convince them otherwise.

[Grommit]

Then we had the 'hang on a bit'.... we only have £xxx million pounds available, and that has to cover all of the consultant costs, .

 

Yep... ours were in the region of Half a Million Pounds upwards

[ROBOCOP]

Beeswax I doubt that any onsite Technician would get Admin Passwords as this is one of their main money spinners...

 

The onsite technicians wouldl TUPE to Northgate and in order for them to keep costs down and hit their SLAs they will want them to do as much as possible and therefore they'll certainly be given admin passwords but also strict guidance on what they can and can't do.

 

At the end of the day Northgate's and RMs service is pretty much dependent on the quality of the onsite technicians they have and as they are TUPE'd this is largely out of their control - hate to be blunt but there's some good guys out there but equally we all know colleagues who we wouldn't touch with a barge pole and no end of training will make a difference to them!