Cloud, SaaS and SoSaas - Same old Software, as a Service

[Bromcom-PR]

Hi Matt40,

 

You post:

http://staticc3.cdngeek.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by GREED http://staticc3.cdngeek.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png There is also the issue of how do you control how much x third party thrashes the server or services if tapping directly into the database, regardless of they are core tables or not. What if x third party wants to poll every 10 seconds for the entire database which in a new cloud installation could be for an entire LA so 100000 kids full records...

When your working in the cloud, your paying for every single resource, read are cheap as it'll all be in memory (with any luck), writes are expensive. So maybe I should have said cost of space + change frequency. You'd make sure you have limits on everything, even your own services - things like querying the school name shouldn't happen every 10 secs, checking for messages you would, but you wouldn't use sql tables, you'd use queues. Anyway I digress into the future. Be interested in your findings we all know about the sluhore that is SIMS but be interested to hear how the other MIS provider fair when it comes to getting at the data.

 

http://staticc3.cdngeek.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by PhilNeal http://staticc3.cdngeek.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

(remember I am not talking SIMS - we are not in the cloud)

 

 

I might get this framed - if only I could find that post where you were trying to tell us it was.

 

http://staticc3.cdngeek.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Roberto http://staticc3.cdngeek.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

If I connect directly to the database behind any product and run DROP DATABASE then that's not the vendor's fault, especially if I was warned about it (provided, of course, that all the info in the DB was mine)... That doesn't change just because something is hosted in the cloud, though I don't doubt some people who didn't get the "cloud's not magic" memo would disagree :-(

 

If it's managed and in the cloud and you got access to the raw tables, you certainly wouldn't have access to drop the database. Still I know what you mean, if it's been designed correctly it'll be all container-ed, however I suspect some companies won't have. It's one of the reasons Office365\Azure was forked from Office\SQL server. "

 

 

 

To all,

 

It is worth starting a new thread with this.

 

What may help the discussion is confusion that has been caused some suppliers simply relocating their offering into central datacentre and calling it cloud or SaaS.

 

The following extracts from some critics may help:

 

SoSaaS:Same old Software, as a Service

I've always beenwary of the term software-as-a-service, not onlybecause SaaS is such an ugly acronym, but also because it conveys completelythe wrong message. It gives the impression that all you need to do is take anyold software package, run it up on a server in a data center, do a bit offinancial engineering so customers can pay on a monthly plan, and hey presto!you've got an on-demand application. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I think it's time to coina new acronym that nails that model much more accurately: Sameold Software, as a Service. This makes it easy to identify on-demandapplications that are not worthy of the name— they're just SoSaaS.

Conventional applicationsoftware simply isn't built for the on-demand model. It doesn'thave the same economies of scale, agility and extensibility, and itsimplementation-centric architecture makes it incapable of delivering equivalentbusiness value — as I'll be demonstrating in the coming months in this blog.Any vendor that takes their existing software and simply delivers it as anonline service just doesn't get it— and their on-demand offering willinevitably be much slower, less flexible and more expensive than rivals thathave rearchitected their applications afresh for the on-demand model.

Knowing this makes it veryeasy to detect whether a vendor's on-demand offering has any validity.Simply listen to what their executives say. Here's Bruce Cleveland, Siebel'snew senior vice president of products, who also oversees Siebel's OnDemandhosted CRM offerings, talking a few days ago about"supplying our products in an on-demand form factor" (huh?):

"... the fact of the matter is that this isall software and it's only the deployment options and financial vehicles thatare used to deliver them that have changed."

Oh dear. Sounds like asevere case of SoSaaS to me.

 

By Phil Wainewright

Phil Wainewright has been a thought leader in cloud computing as ablogger, analyst and consultant since 1998. As well as documenting thetransformation of 21st century enterprises by digital technology, he has apart-time voluntary role as vice-president of industry advocacy group EuroCloud.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/saas/sosaas-same-old-software-as-a-service/8

[PhilNeal]

Perhaps I could ask Bromcom how Third Parties can access data held in Bromcom's cloud? Edited February 17, 2014 by PhilNeal

[Bromcom-PR]

Perhaps I could ask Bromcom how Third Parties can access data held in Bromcom's cloud?

 

Currently, all our partners can AccessData via Secured Web Service APIs written for Third Party companies; they are integrating with Bromcom Cloud MIS and retrieving data for their systems.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Bromcom-PR
Formatting

[PhilNeal]

Great so if a school wanted to move to another system how would they go about it?

[Bromcom-PR]

Phil,

 

I think the reference in the thread where Cloud, Saas and SoSaaS started, was to 'interoperability' rather than 'data migration'. Hence reply above and APIs refer to support for interoperability.

 

As to Bromcom data migration, the process provides access an equivalent 'local install' version of SQL DB from Bromcom Cloud for the customer.

 

This is far more than what Bromcom finds with other MIS suppliers provision for data migration.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Bromcom-PR

[matt40k]

AccessData via Secured Web Service APIs written for Third Party

 

How easy is this get hold of? I mean can a freelance developer get access or would you need to throw some money at it first or get a sponsor?

 

the process provides access an equivalent 'local install' version of SQL DB from Bromcom Cloud for the customer.

 

Is this more of a data dump then a possible dev system?

[Bromcom-PR]

How easy is this get hold of? I mean can a freelance developer get access or would you need to throw some money at it first or get a sponsor?

 

You need to get a sponsor and be prepared to sign NDA.

 

YOU NEED TO THROW NO MONEY!

[Bromcom-PR]

Is this more of a data dump then a possible dev system?

 

No development system.

 

Each vendor will have built their own ways of dealing with the challenge.

[vikpaw]

So as a school who decides to leave (heaven help them), you'd give them a local copy of the SQL data that they can then extract from to migrate away.

No charge? No on-going fees?

 

That would be good, considering some of the horror stories i've heard lately.

[Bromcom-PR]

No charge? No on-going fees?

 

Yes, no charge!

 

Yes, no on-going fees!

[dhicks]

You need to get a sponsor and be prepared to sign NDA.

 

Why? If I understand this discussion correctly, you have a cloud-based MIS of some kind where schools can put all their data, and third-party developers can write applications that get that data via a set of APIs to do whatever they require. You can't just let peple sign up for test accounts, with access to example data, maybe put a limit on the number of GET/POST requests per day or whatever?

[matt40k]

If someone did that, we would see a lot more developers getting involved. The work involved just to get access puts a lot of people off, which can sometimes be a good thing, but not always. The argument about security is pretty outdated nowadays - look at paypal for example, you can write interfaces that handles money without a NDA!

[Bromcom-PR]

Why? If I understand this discussion correctly, you have a cloud-based MIS of some kind where schools can put all their data, and third-party developers can write applications that get that data via a set of APIs to do whatever they require. You can't just let peple sign up for test accounts, with access to example data, maybe put a limit on the number of GET/POST requests per day or whatever?

 

Why ask for Sponsor? To vet 3rd parties; provides the Company reference for bono fide need and comfort about the 3rd parties.

Why ask for NDA? To protect our Company's IP and account for the 3rds parties that have knowledge of Bromcom APIs; avoid use APIs by 3rd parties that are not vetted.

 

Surely what we are asking is very reasonable and responsibly. We are asking for no money or no commitment.

[matt40k]

How would it work for say someone like GroupCall, if they have a problem, do they have to log it via a school or once they are validated they get direct support? Would this apply to everyone?

 

Protect your IP? Seriously? I get it for Capita SIMS, they basically give you access to their entire code base! I mean I could literally cut out any bit of code. Surely a web API would give you nothing but an API, that's the point! Look at DigitalOcean API - https://developers.digitalocean.com/ - knowing that wouldn't allow me create an alternative, taking that information would allow me to create virtual servers on any platform other then digitalocean. All the real logic is squirrelled away behind the scenes!

[dhicks]

Why ask for Sponsor? To vet 3rd parties; provides the Company reference for bono fide need and comfort about the 3rd parties. Why ask for NDA? To protect our Company's IP and account for the 3rds parties that have knowledge of Bromcom APIs; avoid use APIs by 3rd parties that are not vetted.

 

If I was creating an API for a cloud-based MIS, I'd require developers to sign up for an account but that would be it. All that would get you is access to a set of test data, and there would be bandwidth limits to stop your servers getting hammered. Access to a school's actual data would require a cryptographic certificate from that school, and there'd be bandwidth limits again, with graded paid-for options for a school to increase bandwidth.

[matt40k]

Wouldn't charge for bandwidth, seriously not worth it. I wouldn't want to discourage people using the system. It's why you wouldn't charge a per-user fee.

[Bromcom-PR]

How would it work for say someone like GroupCall, if they have a problem, do they have to log it via a school or once they are validated they get direct support? Would this apply to everyone?

 

Protect your IP? Seriously?

 

We support either way depending on the relationship built with the 3rd party.

 

IP: Of course, APIs aren't the worry. Yes, let's not read too much into APIs. However once the relationship with 3rd starts, it sometimes lead to other technical information that we would not want to share with 3rd parties/schools without NDA. Hence we want to get the process right from the outset. NDA does allow us to track the 3rds parties and schools that have knowledge of Bromcom APIs and avoid use APIs by 3rd parties that are not vetted.

[vikpaw]

Wouldn't charge for bandwidth, seriously not worth it. I wouldn't want to discourage people using the system. It's why you wouldn't charge a per-user fee.

 

But now you're just blowing a hole in the whole (!) SAAS model. You have to charge per unit x. Bandwidth, storage, CPU, you name it. Otherwise how will you know it's a scalable cloudy environment?

[matt40k]

I said I wouldn't charge for users or bandwidth. I didn't say I wouldn't charge based on storage!

 

EDIT: I probably wouldn't charge per storage either, after all you want them to use the system. I'd stick with the current model of school type, school size and bolt-ons. Look at CentraStage, they charge per-device they don't charge per deployment per device.

Edited February 18, 2014 by matt40k

[vikpaw]

I said I wouldn't charge for users or bandwidth. I didn't say I wouldn't charge based on storage!

 

EDIT: I probably wouldn't charge per storage either, after all you want them to use the system. I'd stick with the current model of school type, school size and bolt-ons. Look at CentraStage, they charge per-device they don't charge per deployment per device.

 

I put it to you Sir, that you are So not SAAS and nor are they!

[PhilNeal]

Azure certainly bills for usage of storage, processor , power, servers and bandwidth required.

[matt40k]

I put it to you Sir, that you are So not SAAS and nor are they!

 

How dare you! Calling the idea in my head a SoSaaS!! The very idea! My MIS is completely in the cloud!!

 

If it cloud applications was truly about storage, processor , power, servers and bandwidth I would run SIMS on "Azure". Cloud is about things like scale, self-service and automation. My billing page is full of sliders and can dynamically scale up or down your MIS - I then have business logic to work out the baseline resources required the "builds" resources required. The company motto is optimization is king, failure to do so results in more resources being used and you getting leg cut off.

[Bromcom-PR]

How dare you! Calling the idea in my head a SoSaaS!! The very idea! My MIS is completely in the cloud!!

 

If it cloud applications was truly about storage, processor , power, servers and bandwidth I would run SIMS on "Azure". Cloud is about things like scale, self-service and automation.

 

Scaling up:

We totally agree with matt40k on scalability. We tested and checked that any client-server 'thick application' in cloud will require up to 50 fold more RAM against an equivalent web application (written with SaaS in mind!). Hence scaling is not viable or prohibitively expensive! With MIS Bromcom's deployment philosophy has been that all teachers and staff are on line at least some part of the day and at least once all together simultaneously - including in primary schools. In an LA this adds up to a good few thousands of simultaneous user session!

 

Otherwise Microsoft would have had all their Office applications in Azure rather launching Office365! That would have been SoSaaS - wouldn't it?

[GREED]

I can't help it, I can't lurk any more on this thread... It has given me much amusement however!

 

I had a long debate with @penfold_99 about the term SoSaaS, we couldn't agree. Much like my bugbear about the term cloud and the misuse of it, Software as a Service seems to be bounded about without a full understanding of the meaning too.

 

It might be nice to have a definitive definition, because my understanding is that SaaS is software you use you do not manage. So Microsoft when they brought out 365 apps, Word became a Software as a Service you use then switch off. You don't install, update, troubleshoot and fix, that is handled elsewhere. Just as you would with a SaaS MIS. Ok you then have the grey area with the storage, but you could argue this is a service you are paying for too (like OneDrive).

Given that, does SoSaaS actually exist (I personally don't like the term, but as @vikpaw will testify that is probably because I didn't think of it!). I would argue not, because any software could be used as SaaS under that definition.

 

To Cloud, my interpretation has always been that Cloudy applications are ones that are hosted on several disparate and distributed servers, like Google servers and services are. Ones simply presented via a web browser and hosted on a server not on site does not make it cloud(y).

 

Interested in the discussions on APIs and charges, so to @Bromcom-PR I would ask do you charge for your API, in any form (write back included), and do you charge for facilities to test the integration against, for example a test environment. Do you charge a licence fee for non-school 'customers'. It's no secret Capita do make a charge both for partnership and for writeback (This is not a dig at all @PhilNeal it is a public fact these days, but because SIMS is being compared against I wanted to use that as a basis for comparison), so I am wondering your thoughts and position on this? It is just we were talking about integration and that and then suddenly got talking on MIS migration.

 

I thought it might be worth mentioning here as is on topic, however it will be a part of the MIS Question Tim session!

Edited February 19, 2014 by GREED

[matt40k]

I thought this topic was forked from the data migration\integration topic to discuss cloudy things? Do I have to get a mod to slap you back over to your own topic? lol

 

Suppose the the problem with a putting a definitive definition on the term is cloud is difficult by it's very definition. I suppose its like we're trying to put a physical cloud into a box because that's what we are use to doing, we're use to products and services rather than pure services on a utility bases. I think we can all agree we have two types of cloud however, grey and white. Grey would be like putting SIMS .net in it's current form into the sky (centrally hosted) - its going to rain and very few people like the rain and even fewer like being in the rain. SIMS 8 as it's being quoted is going to be build from the ground up for the cloud, so they're white clouds and hopefully the sun will shine - maybe they'll host it Australia for something

 

Perhaps you could do a weather forecast when it comes to your report @GREED when you're talking about their cloud type