[sims] Progress 8 Measure

[tombry]

yeah I just exported the template, looks like you're right.

 

and you'll all be able to see where I work now too...P8WIP.7z

 

the template is called "Test for Tom 1", I 7-zipped it, and the xml file is called P8WIP

 

enjoy?

[vikpaw]

Ah, i thought it might do that but wasn't sure.

 

Yep, it's defo better to take it to look at, and then actually just clone the bits you want including aspects, so you can edit. In some cases it might be possible to just edit the template and put in your aspects, but with complex formulae it's a right pain.

 

It's nice if it's just a whole new system that you don't already have.

 

Similar issue when you import reports from someone, best to clone and save as your own, so they have your name on them and can be edited.

[Ecclesbury]

Ah of course, I forgot that you could clone imported stuff and then muck about with it. That would definitely make things easier!

[tombry]

yeah my former line manager will be happy that he'll be able to step through it now instead of just having a locked template

 

good thing he did this this morning, as he's pointed out I'm not doubling maths - which for some reason I just ignored.

 

he is also contending that I have to divide by 10, not 8, as Maths and English are doubled - which confuses me, what's the point of doubling them then?

Edited March 5, 2014 by tombry

[vikpaw]

I'd imagine you double because they are counted twice, or worth as much, but to get an overall average you have to divide by the total standard unit count. I'm speaking mathematically, as i'm not up on the exact specifics of the P8 measure.

[number34]

yeah my former line manager will be happy that he'll be able to step through it now instead of just having a locked template

 

good thing he did this this morning, as he's pointed out I'm not doubling maths - which for some reason I just ignored.

 

he is also contending that I have to divide by 10, not 8, as Maths and English are doubled - which confuses me, what's the point of doubling them then?

 

They count double in the sense that they count as two subjects, hence the need to divide by 10. It means that the score is weighted towards the English and Maths results. As to the point well it is DFE/Gove driving all of this and it defies most logical systems.

[Ecclesbury]

The Attainment 8 score is really an indication of an "average" grade across this suite of subjects. The idea is to actually express this as a grade (so B+, C- etc) rather than as a point score so it is more accessible/understandable for parents. It's quite nice to set this up as a grade set and teachers also seem to like it. Similarly Progress8 will be expressed as the average number of grades above or below the predicted Attainment8

 

As others state the reason for doubling English and Maths is so that this average grade is weighted towards English & Maths to retain their status as crucial subjects while avoiding the hit or miss nature of the C+ measure.

 

Dividing by 10 in this sense makes sense, since you are looking for an average grade across these 10. Dividing by 8 would just inflate everything.

[Banjo]

This can do strange things to your templates and results. Aspects can get swapped over inside of templates as well as results. This was one of the issues that LA's faced when Capita ended support for their old primary/secondary training DB's.

[Tash]

@davidpott

 

Set yourself up a new gradeset using the p8 points, aspects to hold them, and a mark sheet to copypasta the grades from one to another, take about an hour or so, but you'll need it soon enough

 

Good idea about setting up new gradeset. Excuse my ignorance but how would you copy & paste grades that use a gradeset A*-G with values 58-16 into an aspect with a gradeset 1-8 with values 1-8? There must be a logical sequence with intermediate steps but I'm getting into a tangled headache thinking about it.

 

Oh, just looked at tombry's aspects & gradeset - use A*-G, not 8-1. OK, can do that! Thanks

Edited March 20, 2014 by Tash

[gazskeltz]

Hi,

 

Any ideas on Fine Grades?

 

C =5

C+ = erm... 5.333333333333333

B- = 5.66666666666666

B = 6

 

regards

 

Gaz

[BKGarry]

I have gone with the current expected progress, so

 

6.x = A

5.x = B

4.x = C

3.x = D

2.x or lower = E

[tombry]

Hi,

 

Any ideas on Fine Grades?

 

C =5

C+ = erm... 5.333333333333333

B- = 5.66666666666666

B = 6

 

regards

 

Gaz

 

We don't use fine grades, but I would think that along with sublevels going away, you'd have a hard time using fine grades in a 1 point system, and it would totally break the easy way of seeing VA that I think the A8/P8 scores are supposed to show.

[vikpaw]

I'm all for using decimals and SIMS gradesets will allow decimalisation of the Grade Value.

Previously i've gone for a 5,5.3,5.7 to represent 5a,5b,5c type NC levels. You could do the same for the new points and B+,B,B- etc.

 

We even went as far as to have very fine grades, so instead of 5a,5b, using NC levels down to 5.1,5.2,5.3 etc and using the same for the points values.

It was really useful to make a full gradeset like this, down to the negative values as well, so you can do maths with the grades.

[BKGarry]

There is one issues, Sublevels are for the overall level for English and Maths, from what I could find fine grades are only made from the Exam so there may be a difference in marks used there (not by much hopefully but it is possible)

[Tash]

@davidpott

 

Set yourself up a new gradeset using the p8 points, aspects to hold them, and a mark sheet to copypasta the grades from one to another, take about an hour or so, but you'll need it soon enough

 

Hi, I have set up new gradeset, please can anyone advise on how to set up a marksheet to copy / convert the A*-G grades into the 1 - 8 grades?

[Ecclesbury]

One way would be to use a VALUE formula to get the value of the A*-G grade and then use a MARKS TO GRADES formula to convert this value to the new grade, assuming that they both had the same values. If they didn't have the same values you might still be able to manipulate the values to get what you want.

 

The other alternative is to create a Lookup grid which can convert them directly, but these are a bit fiddlier to set up initially if you have never used them before (use 24 month steps and age range between 10/00 and 20/00 and apply the same grade lookup for each age)

 

Third option - export the marksheet to excel and use excel to convert the grades and then re-import the sheet with the new grades included.

 

There are probably other options that I may have missed which might be quicker.

[tombry]

I still went with letter grades, as the first group with the 1-8 point totals will still be getting letter grades, just the values are different - so all I had to do was add my estimate/target columns to my new sheet and copypasta the marks across.

 

If you want to give them the numbers, then I suppose Ecclesbury's solution is the way to go - but I'd export to Excel, replace the letters with numbers, and then save that as an XML file and re-import it right back in as opposed to fiddling around with a marksheet

[Ecclesbury]

Indeed, if you have exactly the same Grades, with different values, you can just use an EQUALS formula to copy the grades across and the values

[Tash]

Thank you Ecclesbury and Tombry, so in 2016 grades will still be reported as A*-G but have different point score values? I've probably read the answer somewhere already but my head will only retain a little at each sitting! Must read the Progress 8 technical stuff all over again!

[gazskeltz]

Thank you Ecclesbury and Tombry, so in 2016 grades will still be reported as A*-G but have different point score values? I've probably read the answer somewhere already but my head will only retain a little at each sitting! Must read the Progress 8 technical stuff all over again!

 

Hi, I'm not sure either - but it's easier for testing purposes to still keep A*-G as proved above

[AliWoodley]

Hi, you might find the following grade set useful when setting up your attainment/progress 8 templates. What I did, was set up an aspect for each subject, all with a grade set of A*-G using the 8-0 whole numbers. I used EQUALS formula to get my current grades (with 58-A*, 52-A etc) into these new aspects. Then created one aspect called "Attainment 8" using the A*,A- etc., grade set. After setting up all the MAX formulae etc., in order to get the Attainment 8 points score, I then divided by 10 and set up the used the MARKS TO GRADE formulae in my final aspect (with the A*, A- grade set) to give me an average grade for each student.

 

The DfE has now published some helpful clarification: which will allow you to test Attainment 8 out on your current cohort to see where your school would stand:

 

Attainment 8 Points Score – Conversion to Grade

Average grade assigned	Attainment 8 point score for grade	Average point score per pupil (range)
A*	8	7.83+
A*-		7.50-7.82
A+		7.17-7.49
A	7	6.83-7.16
A-		6.50-6.82
B+		6.17-6.49
B	6	5.83-6.16
B-		5.50-5.82
C+		5.17-5.49
C	5	4.83-5.16
C-		4.50-4.82
D+		4.17-4.49
D	4	3.83-4.16
D-		3.50-3.82
E+		3.17-3.49
E	3	2.83-3.16
E-		2.50-2.82
F+		2.17-2.49
F	2	1.83-2.16
F-		1.50-1.82
G+		1.17-1.49
G	1	0.83-1.16
G-		0.50-0.82
U		<0.5

[AmandaLambert]

Hi Ali,

 

Can you provide the link to this information from the DFE

[BKGarry]

Time to update my Lookup tables in SIMS, at least its a lookup table ay :-)

[AliWoodley]

Hi Amanda,

 

This information came to me via a Data Managers Group that I subscribe to....the whole email notification is below (sorry I don't have the link!)

 

""I thought that you might find the post below helpful. It is written by Bill Watkin, who is SSAT Operational Director and lead on policy.

 

Ian

 

 

 

Calculating the new headline average GCSE grade (Attainment 8) for your school.

 

In the new accountability measures, as you know, each school will have an Attainment 8 grade. This average GCSE grade, achieved across the Y11 cohort, in their 8 qualifying subjects, will be expressed as a B, B+ or B- (or a C, C+, C-, D, D+, D- etc). This will be a key headline indicator of a school’s standards.

 

It seems to me that this will be an important measure, because communities and headline makers may be reductive in looking at the full range of performance measures, and may just refer to a school’s Attainment 8 score, when categorising the school’s standards. A school with a high Attainment 8 grade will be viewed more favourably than a school with a low Attainment 8 grade.

 

Of course, a school with a low Attainment 8 grade may actually have an excellent Progress 8 score, if its students have made significant progress, but if the cohort is skewed towards the lower end of the ability spectrum. It will be important to ensure that a school’s Progress 8 measure receives due focus and priority, not just by the authorities, but also by all members of the community.

 

And how will the 8 grades achieved by each Y11 student, averaged across the cohort, to give the school a single Attainment 8 grade, be calculated, in terms of conversion to points and then re-conversion to an average grade?

 

So, this is the question.

 

What average point score equates to what GCSE grade and where do the + and – qualifiers come in?

 

In Attainment 8, the student’s grade in each of his or her 8 qualifying subjects is converted to points (eg B = 6, C = 5, D = 4 etc). So a pupil with 8 straight B grades (bearing in mind that Maths and English count double) scores 10 x 6 = 60.

 

Example student

Subject	Grade achieved	Points equivalent	Total points
English lang	B (x2)	6 (x2)	12
Maths	C (x2)	5 (x2)	10
History	D	4	4
French	C	5	5
Biology	B	6	6
Drama	A	7	7
Art	D	4	4
English lit	C	5	5

 

The total points achieved is divided by 8 (or 10, if you factor in double for English and Maths) and you arrive at an average point score per pupil. This score will be expressed to two decimal points (eg 5.33).

 

This average point score is converted back to a grade. The grade can be expressed with or without a + or a – (C+, C, C-).

 

The question is, how do the decimal points relate to the +/- differential?

 

For example, 6.00 = B.

 

Does 6.33 = B+, because it is higher than the 6 needed for a B? Or is it a straight B, because it is closest to a 6? Or is it a B-, because it is a low score within the 6 range?

Does 5.90 = B- (a kind of B even though the pupil did not actually reach a B)

Or does 5.90 = C+ (it is a high C, but did not actually make the 6 required for a B?

And what does 6.50 relate to? B, B+, A-?

 

The DfE has now published some helpful clarification: which will allow you to test Attainment 8 out on your current cohort to see where your school would stand:

 

Attainment 8 Points Score – Conversion to Grade

Average grade assigned	Attainment 8 point score for grade	Average point score per pupil (range)
A*	8	7.83+
A*-		7.50-7.82
A+		7.17-7.49
A	7	6.83-7.16
A-		6.50-6.82
B+		6.17-6.49
B	6	5.83-6.16
B-		5.50-5.82
C+		5.17-5.49
C	5	4.83-5.16
C-		4.50-4.82
D+		4.17-4.49
D	4	3.83-4.16
D-		3.50-3.82
E+		3.17-3.49
E	3	2.83-3.16
E-		2.50-2.82
F+		2.17-2.49
F	2	1.83-2.16
F-		1.50-1.82
G+		1.17-1.49
G	1	0.83-1.16
G-		0.50-0.82
U		<0.5

[BKGarry]

I have just sat down with our Deputy Head curriculum, Headteacher and Assistant Head for data and we have interpreted it as follows

 

KS2 = Att8 = Grade

 

<0.5 = 0 = U

0.5-1.49 = 1 = G

1.50-2.49 = 2 = F

2.50-3.49 = 3 = E

3.50-4.49 = 4 = D

4.50-5.49 = 5 = C

5.50-6.49 = 6 = B

6.50-7.49 = 7 = A

7.50+ = 8 = A*

 

Hope that makes sense