Opinion: It's official, Apple is the new Microsoft

[ZeroHour]

Dont flame me for this but I thought it was interesting

---

Ten years ago, Microsoft was the company everyone loved to hate.

 

The most vociferous Microsoft haters slammed the company for being a greedy industry bully that used its monopolistic, clunky, copycat operating system to force software on users and coerce partners into unfair licensing deals.

 

Don't look now, but the role of the industry's biggest bully is increasingly played by Apple, not Microsoft. Here's a look at how Apple has shoved Microsoft aside as the company with the worst reputation as a monopolist, copycat and a bully.

 

Read the whole thing here

[mattx]

I hate Microsoft & Apple. ;-) [ Specially Apple, & Steve Jobs ]

Jobs has always been a self centered moron, specially how he treated his first girlfriend and daughter. At least Gates has some morals and gives a load of dosh to charity etc.

 

P.S. Enjoyed reading that article.

[localzuk]

mattx - you think Gates gives money to charity for any reason other than to reduce his tax bill? Hmm, you are a more trusting man than I then.

 

I don't hate Apple, but I do hate some of their business practices. I love their designs - computers by Apple are refreshing and trendy. I don't like the cost associated with it though.

[GrumbleDook]

People know my feelings towards Macs ... and I get bored with flame wars ... but one things I have said to a number of people is to be thankful that Bill Gates came to dominance before Steve Jobs.

 

Bill is ruthless and cut-throat in business and we can say that about many top players in many different industries (Lord Leverhulme is remembered as a philanthropist but he was cut throat in his business dealings and in politics to get what he wanted), but Steve Jobs ... well ... some would call him a megalomaniac.

 

This is fine in someone wanting to beat the big boys with the monopolies ... but what happens when they become the big boy?

 

The company still makes kit I love and I will buy it (just as I buy from MS) but is there truly anyone out there who has the presence and persona to stand up to Jobs? The companies that are trying to get in on the music areas that Apple is so strong in are big players themselves ...

 

Is the era of the small evangelist gone? Do we have to rely on the big companies to fight it out with one another or get lawyers and accountants involved? "We think we can get more money out of you so we are raising the cost of shows!" "We don't care" "Fine, we will take our shows elsewhere!" ... What happened to the day when an idea was the thing that drove people to a company, the person with high ideals, the company that wanted the killer app or killer device, sometimes just to say 'Yes, we ere the people that started it all!'

 

Bob Cringely gets slated and praised depending on the season but I still thinks he gets the general feeling of the IT industry spot on ... If you have not read his blog then I think it is worth it. Likewise, Triumph of the Nerds is a fantastic book (and tv series) and to some extent shows how we got to where we are today.

[beeswax]

A lot of you may have read this already, but for those who haven't I feel it sheds an interesting light on SJobs.

[tech_guy]

Steve Jobs gets on my titties.

[jopijedd]

I don't have a great deal of time for Gates, but Jobs is an absolute arse. The man wasn't a problem when he was content making his own, specialist IT equipment, but the poor performing, badly constructed and expensive crApple music player and its associated software is just plain evil. If Gates had cornered the market like this, he would have been strung up by the balls years ago, yet for Jobs and Apple to do it is acceptable, even applauded for bringing digital music to the masses. The fact that in the same move, he has been responsible for thousands of people losing their jobs as record shops worldwide get pushed out of the market doesn't seem to matter which is a personal bugbear of mine - i used to be able to visit about 20 proper record shops within a ten mile radius of home, now i have two HMVs (neither of which stock vinyl) and one Virgin. All the indepents have been pushed out of business. I now have to order records from a mail order firm in Leeds. FFS.

 

Anyone who buys an ipod is a fashion victim. There are better value for money players out there which don't tie you in to itunes. In many cases you can buy copies of CDs for less than they are on itunes. That is ridiculous. And the media should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for promoting it through anal "Whats on my ipod" features.

 

.....AAAAAND RELAX.....

[localzuk]

but the poor performing, badly constructed and expensive crApple music player and its associated software is just plain evil.

 

The performance and capabilities of their players is personal opinion. I think the iPod nano mk2 was an excellent device, small, well designed and had a good menu system. I can't comment on the others, as I haven't used them, but if they have similar control systems then they would be similarly praised. On the other hand, I have used the old Diamond Rio and the Creative Jukebox and both were clunky and annoying.

 

If Gates had cornered the market like this, he would have been strung up by the balls years ago

 

He did, and he was...

 

yet for Jobs and Apple to do it is acceptable, even applauded for bringing digital music to the masses.

 

Well, yes, they did just that. If you follow the way the market emerged, they did exactly that.

 

The fact that in the same move, he has been responsible for thousands of people losing their jobs as record shops worldwide get pushed out of the market doesn't seem to matter which is a personal bugbear of mine - i used to be able to visit about 20 proper record shops within a ten mile radius of home, now i have two HMVs (neither of which stock vinyl) and one Virgin. All the indepents have been pushed out of business. I now have to order records from a mail order firm in Leeds. FFS.

 

That is an irrelevant argument and can be said about any technological advancement. The car put many stable hands out of work, the digital phone exchange put many operator's out of work. If there is a market, they will survive, if not, they won't. That's simple market economics.

 

Anyone who buys an ipod is a fashion victim. There are better value for money players out there which don't tie you in to itunes.

 

Depends what you want from a music player. My phone plays music, but the controls are useless. I'd buy an iPod if I had the money.

 

In many cases you can buy copies of CDs for less than they are on itunes.

 

So how are you restricted to itunes? The store is an added bonus way of buying music. You can still rip your cd's.

 

That is ridiculous.

 

Nope, that, once again, is market economics. That is businesses adjusting their business model in order to capitalise on a newly shaped market most effectively - and it works, I don't download music, I buy CD's.

 

And the media should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for promoting it through anal "Whats on my ipod" features.

 

The media just do what will get them viewers.

 

Your comment pretty much sums up what I find annoying about those people who hate Apple. You don't seem to really have looked at the situation properly. At the full history of the market, the innovations that Apple introduced, the fact that people *want* their gadget to look good (like people want their car to look good, or their phone, or their kitchen, or any other item in their life).

[mattx]

mattx - you think Gates gives money to charity for any reason other than to reduce his tax bill?

 

I don't care much about his Tax Bill - at least there are people who are benefiting from his fortune in a positive way.

[mattx]

Apple introduced, the fact that people *want* their gadget to look good

 

Not me, I want a gadget that works, I want a gadget in which I can change the battery, I want a gadget in which I can purchase music from another source and play it in another device that I already own.

Not much to ask I think.

 

Jobs just wants people to kiss his arse. :oops:

[tech_guy]

I don't have a great deal of time for Gates, but Jobs is an absolute arse. The man wasn't a problem when he was content making his own, specialist IT equipment, but the poor performing, badly constructed and expensive crApple music player and its associated software is just plain evil. If Gates had cornered the market like this, he would have been strung up by the balls years ago, yet for Jobs and Apple to do it is acceptable, even applauded for bringing digital music to the masses. The fact that in the same move, he has been responsible for thousands of people losing their jobs as record shops worldwide get pushed out of the market doesn't seem to matter which is a personal bugbear of mine - i used to be able to visit about 20 proper record shops within a ten mile radius of home, now i have two HMVs (neither of which stock vinyl) and one Virgin. All the indepents have been pushed out of business. I now have to order records from a mail order firm in Leeds. FFS.

 

Anyone who buys an ipod is a fashion victim. There are better value for money players out there which don't tie you in to itunes. In many cases you can buy copies of CDs for less than they are on itunes. That is ridiculous. And the media should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for promoting it through anal "Whats on my ipod" features.

 

.....AAAAAND RELAX.....

 

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE.

[localzuk]

mattx - you think Gates gives money to charity for any reason other than to reduce his tax bill?

 

I don't care much about his Tax Bill - at least there are people who are benefiting from his fortune in a positive way.

 

Erm... Taxes are just that. They provide money to the country in which the person lives...

 

Not me, I want a gadget that works, I want a gadget in which I can change the battery, I want a gadget in which I can purchase music from another source and play it in another device that I already own.

Not much to ask I think.

 

Well I don't want a gadget which I can fiddle with, like changing batteries - I want one that plays music and has a good menu system etc... And if you want to buy music to play on something else, use a different service. It isn't like they are forcing you to use itunes if you have another player.

 

I still don't get your argument. People wouldn't buy them if they weren't good. Don't be geeky about it, look at it from the point of view of a normal person. The iPod/iTunes package is simple, easy to use and it looks good. This is what most people want - hence having sold however billion songs...

[mattx]

Well I don't want a gadget which I can fiddle with, like changing batteries

:?: :?: :?:

 

It isn't like they are forcing you to use itunes if you have another player.

 

No, but they are forcing you to use itunes if you use an ipod !!

 

I still don't get your argument.

 

Not my problem.

 

look at it from the point of view of a normal person.

 

No, I look at it from a person who wants value for money & freedom of choice !! The ipod, itunes, iphone don't offer that.

 

This is what most people want

 

Like I said, I am not 'most people' If people want to be conned into using ipods, itunes and iphones thats down to them. I don't agree with the DRM aspect of it all - in fact ask your ' most people ' asyou put it, most of them won't even know what DRM is !!

 

and it looks good

 

Does it ? I think the ipod looks naff. The Technics 1210 mk2 direct drive turntable - now thats class.

[localzuk]

Well I don't want a gadget which I can fiddle with, like changing batteries

:?: :?: :?:

 

Just plugging it in seems good enough to me...

It isn't like they are forcing you to use itunes if you have another player.

No, but they are forcing you to use itunes if you use an ipod !!

 

Not necessarily, you can use various programs in Linux to use it, but then I don't care - itunes is good. My phone (Samsung X830) requires me to use its particular software program in order to put stuff on it, so the software/hardware thing is nothing special.

 

look at it from the point of view of a normal person.

 

No, I look at it from a person who wants value for money & freedom of choice !! The ipod, itunes, iphone don't offer that.

 

And as I said, that is not the point. It is simple market economics. The item wouldn't sell if people didn't want it. Saying that Apple are evil, or Jobs is evil because it ties people in to a certain program or hardware system is pointless - if people are buying it.

 

This is what most people want

 

Like I said, I am not 'most people' If people want to be conned into using ipods, itunes and iphones thats down to them. I don't agree with the DRM aspect of it all - in fact ask your ' most people ' asyou put it, most of them won't even know what DRM is !!

 

So, if you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't go around whinging about it, as you are not the target market.

 

and it looks good

 

Does it ? I think the ipod looks naff. The Technics 1210 mk2 direct drive turntable - now thats class.

 

Hmm, now lets see you carry that around in your pocket... Plus, that is one ugly turntable! This is a good looking turntable... Design is a personal choice, but there are certain things that most people will say is a good design. For example, Tower Bridge - most people think it is impressive, same with the Eiffel Tower. And that goes for the ipod, it is seen as cool and a good design.

[mattx]

Not necessarily, you can use various programs in Linux to use it

 

But why should you ? I also seem to remember Jobs once saying he did not like DRM - but has he changed anything on the ipod about it ?

 

Just plugging it in seems good enough to me...

 

On the subject of the ipod battery, does Apple charge you when it needs changing ?

 

It is simple market economics. The item wouldn't sell if people didn't want it. Saying that Apple are evil, or Jobs is evil because it ties people in to a certain program or hardware system is pointless - if people are buying it.

 

I never said Jobs is evil, I said he is a self centered moron. And the reason it sells is because Apple is very good at marketing, and your ' most people ' easily fall for their marketing measures !! I mean, just look at the amount of idiots who have bought a iphone which operates on only [ unless hacked ] on the AT&T network which is pile of poo. Clever marketing again.

 

As the late great Bill Hicks once said:

 

By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill yourself. Thank you, thank you. Just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day they'll take root. I don't know. You try. You do what you can. Kill yourselves. Seriously though, if you are, do. No really, there's no rationalisation for what you do, and you are Satan's little helpers, OK? Kill yourselves, seriously. You're the ruiner of all things good. Seriously, no, this is not a joke.

[localzuk]

Not necessarily, you can use various programs in Linux to use it

 

But why should you ? I also seem to remember Jobs once saying he did not like DRM - but has he changed anything on the ipod about it ?

 

Huh? You just said that you have to use itunes to use an ipod, I point out that you don't and you say 'why should you?' - that doesn't make sense.

 

Put it this way with the DRM stuff. Do you think Apple would have built up a phenomenal music store )ie. got the support of so many record companies to sell their stuff) if they hadn't used DRM? That is simply business sense. And now you can download DRM free songs via ITMS, as the companies have seen how popular ITMS is and have allowed it to happen - I doubt they would have done it from the beginning.

 

On the subject of the ipod battery, does Apple charge you when it needs changing ?

 

I have no idea, I don' have an ipod (or any music player) any more due to not needing one. However, I would likely replace such a device with the same regularity as I do my phone and my PC - about every 12 - 18 months, so battery issues wouldn't matter as the battery would last that long.

 

 

I never said Jobs is evil, I said he is a self centered moron. And the reason it sells is because Apple is very good at marketing, and your ' most people ' easily fall for their marketing measures !! I mean, just look at the amount of idiots who have bought a iphone which operates on only [ unless hacked ] on the AT&T network which is pile of poo. Clever marketing again.

 

Ok, no you didn't say that Jobs is evil. You said 'I hate Microsoft & Apple. Wink [ Specially Apple, & Steve Jobs ]', in a post about how Apple is becoming a bully. You didn't explain why, you didn't expand on anything. You go on to rant about the devices they make and the people that buy their products, even though you are simply not their target audience. And as I said, it is market economics. If people didn't want them, they wouldn't buy them.

 

Also, I don't believe it is down to marketting. It is more down to the fact that Apple released a complete service, ie. iPod + iTunes + ITMS. Creating a previously unheard of solution from a single place. No other manufacturer did this, and this is what people had been calling out for. Their marketing for the ipod stuff is actually pretty crap in my opinion.

[mattx]

Huh? You just said that you have to use itunes to use an ipod, I point out that you don't and you say 'why should you?' - that doesn't make sense.

 

If you own an ipod the proprietary software you use is itunes. To make it worse files can only be copied one way with iTunes. You cannot take your iPod to a friends house and copy songs off of it or too another player.

Does that make sense ? It does to me - thats why I don't own one !!

 

And now you can download DRM free songs via ITMS,

 

Only after a huge stink was created.

 

On the subject of the ipod battery, does Apple charge you when it needs changing ?

... battery issues wouldn't matter as the battery would last that long.

 

Nonreplaceable Rechargeable Battery - Keyword is "nonreplaceable", at least not for the average user. Anyone that knows anything about electronics and rechargeable batteries is that at some point they will fail and need to be replaced.

Thats an issue to me, and if you own an ipod, an expensive one.

 

You didn't explain why, you didn't expand on anything.

 

I don't really need to, their over priced and hyped up products do that for them.

 

Also, I don't believe it is down to marketting.

 

Just blind luck & gullible people who don't fully understand what they are buying then.

 

Their marketing for the ipod stuff is actually pretty crap in my opinion.

 

Just like their products ;-)

 

FYI and others:

 

On February 6, 2007, Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple Inc., published an open letter entitled Thoughts on Music on the Apple website calling on the "big four" music companies to sell their music without DRM. According to Jobs, Apple does not want to use DRM but is forced by the four major musical labels with whom Apple negotiates contracts for iTunes.

 

On April 2, 2007, Steve Jobs and EMI announced DRM free music for EMI's complete music library for a $0.30 premium above the standard price. This began in May 2007.

 

So Jobs is all for DRM free music but then charges you extra for it !! Tosser !!

[localzuk]

Oh come on Mattx! You are being naive to the extreme! Apple is a business. EMI is a business. EMI will have said to Apple 'yes, you can sell it without DRM, but we will want more royalties'. And then Apple have to recuperate those extra costs, and the cost of negotiating that contract. I seriously doubt that Apple are making anything from that extra $0.30 other than increased custom from people buying more songs.

 

Also, what does it matter if the software is proprietary or not? Your complaint, as I said, was that you have to use itunes - which I pointed out was false. It simply is. And regarding the copying files onto another computer - that makes sense! You are only licensed to use the files on your equipment, so using it on others would be against that license. Same as it would be wrong if you ripped a cd onto their computer.

 

And regarding the battery. If it dies during the first 12 months, in the UK you could easily claim that it should be covered by Apple due to trading laws, so they should replace it. Any time after that and you'd be looking at replacing it anyway...

[localzuk]

BTW. I don't actually own any Apple products at the moment. (I use some at school though, and have had a variety in the past). I am simply trying to point out that most of the arguments against Apple are poorly thought out, and would have been thrown at any company that had prevailed in the online music market.

[webman]

Well, the reason I don't use iTunes is the DRM factor and the cost. Years down the line, I wouldn't be able to copy the same downloaded file to a portable device or a CD or another computer (that I own).

 

I also don't like iPods... They look crap, featureset is limited, I have to pay if I want to change the battery, I can't just plug-in-and-copy as it's not a Mass Storage Device, it's pretty useless for me.

 

Apple's marketing doesn't work on me

 

I still have 8-year-old MP3s on my server that have been copied to-and-fro from ZIP disks, harddrives, portable music players, and eventually file servers. The same could not have been done with DRM files.

[mattx]

Well, the reason I don't use iTunes is the DRM factor and the cost. Years down the line, I wouldn't be able to copy the same downloaded file to a portable device or a CD or another computer (that I own).

 

I also don't like iPods... They look crap, featureset is limited, I have to pay if I want to change the battery, I can't just plug-in-and-copy as it's not a Mass Storage Device, it's pretty useless for me.

 

Amen to that !! ;-)

 

Can you imagine a few years ago puchasing a record, tape, CD, MD, dat tape etc, taking it round your mates but not being able to play it ?

[Ashers]

It still makes me laugh when I hear people say that Gates stole the GUI ideas for windows 95 from Apple when Apple stole the whole thing from the techies at Xerox Parc.

 

Gates was just the man in the right place when IBM came knocking on the door, but the main point seems to be that there has always been an alternative that you can use either with or instead of Microsoft as they were are still mostly are a software manufacturer.

 

Apple have on the other hand had the hardware linked in to the software, and this is where the issue of the lockin has become an issue, use our hardware an you have no choice but to use our software.

 

But from a business point of view, I don't think you can say that either of them has done particularly badly. Maybe not ethical but then most businesses aren't, even those that say they are! But that's a different post altogether.

[CyberNerd]

I just spotted this article, that suggests the new ipods are being designed specifically to prevent interaction with other free players, no more Amarok! and total lock-in to itunes which sounds like a familiar MS tactic.

 

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/09/14/new-ipods-reengineer.html

[mattx]

Sounds about right CyberNerd - thing is, people will still bow to Apple's marketing and be sucked into their rip off culture they have clearly adopted.

 

Funny thing is I am about to pop out this afternoon and purchase a MP3 player as my old CD / MP3 player is on its last legs...

Apple & Jobs can kiss my arse !!

[ZeroHour]

Let us know what you buy Mattx

Yeh its typical apple tactics sadly