featured_spectre Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Want to know what meets my criteria for proving god exists? Have him/her cure my menieres disease and restore my hearing on the spot, if that is not applicable, have him/her turn mercury into gold by removing a single proton per atom, instantly in front of my eyes. If that happens, I will believe to the day I die.
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 he'd suggest that having fish as part of your diet is a good thing. Irrelevant. The subject is "you can't serve anything other than fish on Friday, because God" not "should you eat fish at some point". have him/her turn mercury into gold by removing a single proton per atom, instantly in front of my eyes. If that happens, I will believe to the day I die. Get me a particle accelerator and I'll be you God.
featured_spectre Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 do it without, just by sheer willpower...for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god it should be an easy task
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 do it without, just by sheer willpower...for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god it should be an easy task I'M TRYING! I did it. No, no... You don't need to see it. Just have faith. 2
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Want to know what meets my criteria for proving god exists? Have him/her cure my menieres disease and restore my hearing on the spot, if that is not applicable, have him/her turn mercury into gold by removing a single proton per atom, instantly in front of my eyes. If that happens, I will believe to the day I die. But how would you know that it wasn't the Devil instead?
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 But how would you know that it wasn't the Devil instead? I think the horns and cloven hooves would give it away.
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 So, if I came down to where you are and slapped you in the face, I didn't do that. God made me do it because it's part of His plan. Aha... come down and slap me... then you'll see where free will and God's plan come together... It's your free will to slap me, it may be that out of your free will decision there comes an opportunity for me to show you how and why I believe in God, but I don't know what His plan is... just of note, I wouldn't suggest slapping Christians as part of an experiment to see whether this relates to His plan... it may after all be that His plan is for you to turn to Him after being jailed for assaults on religious groups
Greenbeast Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 But how would you know that it wasn't the Devil instead? surely wouldn't matter, one all powerful being is the same as the next
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 I think the horns and cloven hooves would give it away. Its not South Park!!!!
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 The subject is "you can't serve anything other than fish on Friday, because God" not "should you eat fish at some point". I don't see where God/Jesus says that...
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 I don't see where God/Jesus says that... I don't see where I said they did... It's a church thing to show... wait for it... Pennance. Just like every other thing they come up with.
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Want to know what meets my criteria for proving god exists? Have him/her cure my menieres disease and restore my hearing on the spot, if that is not applicable, have him/her turn mercury into gold by removing a single proton per atom, instantly in front of my eyes. If that happens, I will believe to the day I die. The trouble with that argument is that God has given us the freedom to believe in him or not so isn't going to oblige
Garacesh Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Thats a start then so I don't just get some old bloke dressed in white with a beard and say here he is. List please Not quite Although I heard of an interesting experiment where three mental patients who all believed they were Jesus were put together. Honestly, I can't tell you what my criteria would be. That's not because 'nothing will prove it', but simply because of my own human weaknesses. I honestly could not tell you what would 'prove' God or any other deity exists because it could be a trick akin to the bunny-from-a-hat. It could be some new science. Sleight-of-hand or even a hallucination. Unfortunately the Veil of Perception prevents me from being able to say with 100% certainty what it would take for me to believe God exists. However - I will still give anybody who wishes it the chance to submit evidence and I will evaluate it. It would definitely have to be something repeatable and subject to physical scrutiny by others. So, if I came down to where you are and slapped you in the face, I didn't do that. God made me do it because it's part of His plan. Please don't ;_; I like my face how it is. 1
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 I don't see where I said they did... It's a church thing to show... wait for it... Pennance. Just like every other thing they come up with. You've had a bad experience with Catholocism in the past haven't you? I'm Christian, I don't have to eat fish on a Friday, all I do to be a Christian is believe.
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 You've had a bad experience with Catholocism in the past haven't you? snopes. I just don't like wilful ignorance. Hitchhiker's, just because. 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.' `But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' `Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic. 1
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 The trouble with that argument is that God has given us the freedom to believe in him or not so isn't going to oblige Another aspect of beleiving is that god insists on such restraint in showing off because no pyrotechnic displays of omnipotence will achieve the response he desires. Although power can force obedience, only love can summon a response of love, which is the one thing God wants from us and the reason he created us."What God wants is for us to know him as our Father, Friend, Comforter, Counselor, Lord -- willingly, not under compulsion.
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 snopes. I just don't like wilful ignorance. Apologies, just picking up on 2 of your comments - original sin and pennance, both conservative Catholic views.
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Apologies, just picking up on 2 of your comments - original sin and pennance, both conservative Catholic views. Ah, that's injustice. Original sin and pennance [or at least how pennance is presented] are both the belief that you are sinful because you exist [or because of someone else's actions]. You may not have actually done anything, you could be the most pious person in existence. But, you're still sinful and should beg for forgiveness. [Hey, look Godwin!] Think of it like judging everyone based on Hitler. Although I heard of an interesting experiment where three mental patients who all believed they were Jesus were put together. Actually, that just reminded me of something I really want to know... If someone claimed to be Jesus, would Christians HAVE to believe them? According to their religion Jesus was real, was the son of God and will come back to kick of the Apocalypse. [i think...] So, it logically follows that said person COULD be Jesus.
soveryapt Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Personally speaking, if you're searching yourself for any sign of existence of $deity, then that's normally when you will find the proof you need.. The thing (and this can be applied to anything really I guess) - if you're looking for something, you're more likely to stumble upon the proof that you require, where as if you're not searching, then you're not likely to accept any proof.. For me, I've always known about God, I was brought up knowing of God, I went to church with my Christian Mother and Atheist Church Organ Playing Father, I lost "faith" in my own faith for a while, but it wasn't until I had a few God encounters at various places along my journey that He became real for me. And those things keep happening for me. Everyone's journey is different, some don't find that proof, some are happy not even looking for that proof. However, my pet hate in any of this is when people try to bully you into thinking their way about things, or try to belittle other people's beliefs / non-beliefs (whatever the PC all encompassing term is). If you want to believe in a God, any God, great, that's brilliant, I'm truly happy for you, if you want to have a shared journey whilst believing in the same God as I, that's great too, if you want to not believe in anything, that's totally fine, the one thing that you must do in all of this though is be respectful to those other people around you. Not to take pot shots at people because of their differences of thought, but to have grown up conversations about it. Not to get angry saying its up to you to prove this that and the other, it's not up to anyone to prove anything to anyone in this sense, your life is your life. Its up to you as a person to explore different things and not just take something as being said as being the truth, it's up to you to have the discussion, in a grown up way, with people of differing views, and only from that will there be a chance to prove it. For me, God didn't command "go out and prove I exist" he said "go and make disciples of men" - this is about leadership, not conning people into stuff, not promising peoples answers you can't give, but living your life as best you can, and people will be attracted to the things you do.. now this might be that you go out and your just a really nice person who doesn't have a belief, but people might put faith in your non belief and go along with that, or they might just be happy to be, equally, people might (as I've had people with me) come up and say things such as "are you a Christian" to which when I've confirmed this they've simply said "I thought you might have been, there's just something different about how you are with the pupils and staff, a kindness that just seems to shine out" - now I'm not saying that non-Christian's can't have this, they can have kindness, and do have, towards people - but if you're going around with a chip on your shoulder about religion and spouting off to try and belittle other people, then, well, you're just not a nice person in the first place. We're all in this world together, and (at the risk of sounding like a complete hippy) we are all different and just need to accept that and be at peace with that. They say the biggest cause of grief in the world stems from religion, no, it stems from the misinterpretation of religion. I'm not sure there is a single religion out there that states "in order to make these people believe, you must kill yourself and take out as many people as you can whilst doing it" - this is where religion is used as a tool to guilt people, and it comes back to the same thing, it's not the way we should live, with or without religion. I'm really glad that this discussion has actually been undertaken fairly well actually, apart from the odd thing. People are allowed to get passionate about their own view points and put them across passionately, but if it can't be done with respect, then just shut up, I don't want to hear it. [/rant2] 4
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) X-13 Good question, poor first part answer but its nearly home time "The scriptures caution us that if we rely upon signs and wonders, we will be seduced by the Devil himself. In this respect, the Bible warns us that the Anti-Christ can also perform miracles, and that "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:14 NIV). Even the Lord himself foretold that: "false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect..." (Matt 24:24 NIV)." I beleive that we would know even though his desciples failed to recognise him after the resurection. BTW NIV=New Internetional Version of the Bible Edited May 22, 2013 by E_G_R2
sted Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Where did the definition of Marriage come from in the first place? Sunday trading laws, although partly about the Christian's traditional church attendance day is also to do with the idea of a traditional working week, and keeping time available for people to relax and not have to work - would you like schools to be in on Saturday and Sunday as well, just rotating staff? Fish Friday - yep, that's Catholic, but most places serve other stuff as well... and I'l sure if I checked with my father-in-law (Professor of Metabolic Physiology) he'd suggest that having fish as part of your diet is a good thing. isnt marriage when you go back enough about property making the bride the husbands property?
ozydave Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 I can't remember who said it, but something to the effect of 'If God cannot stop these events, he is not all-powerful. If he can, but chooses not to, he is apathetic to our suffering. If he causes them himself, he is malevolent. Either way, he is not worthy of worship.' Epicurus is the chap your after. His statement sums up everything you need to know about religion 1
SpuffMonkey Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Personally - I think that agnosticism is the only logical stance to take - there can be no proof (or disproof) of deities in any meaningful way - so it makes sense to take that on the chin and get on with our lives, mostly following the idea of "do as you would be done by" which seems to cover most of the sensible bits of religious direction..
ozydave Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 If god did exist he is a bumbling fool. The eye is often held up as a perfect 'design'. It is self evident that it is not a perfect design. Who in their right mind would design something that is upside down, backward and has blind spots. Then rely on the photoshop like software of the brain to correct and interpret the signals. And why give far more potent optics to a lowly creature such as an owl or hawk
teejay Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 If god did exist he is a bumbling fool. The eye is often held up as a perfect 'design'. It is self evident that it is not a perfect design. Who in their right mind would design something that is upside down, backward and has blind spots. Then rely on the photoshop like software of the brain to correct and interpret the signals. And why give far more potent optics to a lowly creature such as an owl or hawk Because God has as sense of humour, if you don't believe me, look between your legs:p
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